蜜桃影视

See previous 74 interviews: Sen. Cory Booker talks about the success of Newark鈥檚 school reforms, civil rights activist Dr. Howard Fuller talks equity in education, Harvard professor Karen Mapp talks family engagement, former U.S. Department of Education secretary John King talks the Trump administration, and more. The full archive is .

After a prolonged lull, American school integration debates have reignited in recent years. Courtney Everts Mykytyn, the founder of California-based , is quietly becoming a force in these conversations.

Her four-year-old group describes itself and its mission this way: 鈥淚ntegrated Schools is growing a grassroots movement of, by and for parents who are intentionally, joyfully and humbly enrolling their children in integrating schools 鈥� Because school segregation is as much a story of failed public policy as it is one of white/privileged families thwarting it, our hearts-and-minds campaign offers a new model for integration in which this undertaking falls not on the backs of marginalized communities, but on white and/or privileged families who care about equity.鈥�

I first encountered Mykytyn鈥檚 work while writing about gentrification鈥檚 effects on bilingual education. She鈥檚 also been featured in 听补苍诲 . I sat down with her during a spring trip to Los Angeles.

The interview has been edited for length and clarity.

蜜桃影视:聽You鈥檝e said that you kind of ignited around school integration at a meeting about middle school feeder patterns for dual language programs, right?

Mykytyn: Yeah. I attended this meeting as a parent of a kid in a middle school that had just opened up dual language, and to see if we could potentially draw in this other dual language elementary school as well. And the way that those privileged parents were talking and cheering on others about what they expected and demanded from the district 鈥� 鈥淚f you don鈥檛 give me X, Y, Z, I鈥檓 taking my kid to a charter school! I鈥檓 leaving tomorrow!鈥� WOOOOO! Cheers, cheers, foot stamping. It wasn鈥檛 pretty.

No self-awareness.

I mean, I鈥檓 sure there was a little. There must have been someone who was quiet. I knew a couple of people who were unhappy with how it went down. But the loud ones in the dual language program [were] so far from what I had hoped that program could be. It wasn鈥檛 about integration. It wasn鈥檛 about equity. It wasn鈥檛 about coming together as a community. It was entirely about 鈥淭his is really great, what I get for my kid. I鈥檇 like more.鈥� I don鈥檛 know how else to say it other than 鈥�.鈥�

And it really just became utterly clear that, as long as 飞别鈥檙别 not talking about integration, 飞别鈥檙别 not talking about integration.

We鈥檝e seen this a lot lately, right? Places like the Upper West Side, where some white families got . They were yelling about what their kids needed 鈥�

And 鈥�deserved鈥�!

When rich, white kids 鈥渘eed鈥� something, we act as though they 鈥渄eserve鈥� it. So, in places like New York, L.A., and D.C., there鈥檚 this influx of young, upwardly mobile, highly educated, often white families. They live in neighborhoods both because of price and by choice.

Yeah, I think there鈥檚 a rejection of sterility. I don鈥檛 鈥� they don鈥檛 鈥� want to live in a cookie-cutter suburb.

Right. They鈥檙e well off, but not so much that they can afford to buy segregation outright with real estate. But there鈥檚 also a cultural part. So you鈥檝e got these diversity-curious families who still blanche at the step of sending their kids to schools that look like their neighborhood. Why?

You know why. You know exactly why. I mean, there鈥檚 a lot of racism and classism. And it鈥檚 often racism talked about like classism.

We鈥檝e been steeped in this broken-schools narrative, . It鈥檚 easy to point at any government institution and say that it鈥檚 broken, to point out the broken pieces, but there鈥檚 also a disconnect between who it鈥檚 broken for. When you鈥檙e looking at the white kids, the privileged kids, it鈥檚 actually not broken. These stories are building up and kind of creating the air 飞别鈥檙别 breathing.

So 鈥� take that, and add anxious parents leveraged to the gills to afford a house in a gentrifying neighborhood, and here we are.

I鈥檝e been thinking about parenting and our risk culture. If you don鈥檛 give your kids the right foods in the right order when they鈥檙e young, then they鈥檙e only going to eat butter noodles until they鈥檙e 10 and they won鈥檛 have the right nutrition, so their metabolism will predispose them to obesity. If they don鈥檛 get this many hours of play, if they don鈥檛 feel heard by adults this many times a day 鈥︹�淏AM! BAM! You are going to screw all of this up! You know you will!鈥�

We need to be clear: these aren鈥檛 the actual risks of having police target your kids, right, just for being a 12-year-old walking home in a hoodie. But you really love your kid. They鈥檝e thrown up on you so, so many times. You just love this kid and you want to do everything you can.

So: why the disconnect between living in the community and sending your kids to school in the community? It鈥檚 about how we define good parenting, and how we define good schools. Those two narratives outweigh narratives around what a good citizen or community member is.

What does it mean to have good schools? Does it have to have a fancy program like dual language? Great test scores? An organic garden? Is that the definition?

Or is it that there are kids. In a building. With teachers. Could that be OK? Is there some value, actually, in other things that aren鈥檛 quite as easily measured? I鈥檓 not saying data is crap. But it鈥檚 hard to think healthily about it in terms of your kid.

Today鈥檚 parents are under a lot of pressure. Of course school enrollment feels high-stakes. And they鈥檙e 鈥� 飞别鈥檙别 鈥� cushioned by plenty of privilege!

I mean, it鈥檚 part of the smog that 飞别鈥檙别 breathing. We鈥檝e really moved from a narrative of childhood as a time of resilience to a time of vulnerability. Combine that with our narrative of failing schools. If you think your kid is really crushable, if you think that his creativity is that vulnerable, it matters a lot. If you want to get into such and such private school, you have to get into such and such preschool. That tends to be a really big counterpoint: 鈥淚鈥檓 just worried that these schools that have low test scores are just going to be teaching to the test and that therefore they鈥檙e not going to be interesting, and therefore my kid鈥檚 not going to be enchanted by learning and they鈥檙e going to live in my basement.鈥�

Folks get defensive when you ask them about why they鈥檙e choosing the segregated district school across town. [Groan.] Enough. Let鈥檚 talk about hope.

I mean, I think there鈥檚 an opportunity now to talk about segregation in ways that don鈥檛 necessarily bring busing into the center of the conversation. So the mechanics of it in a gentrifying neighborhood 鈥� I鈥檓 not talking about a 45-minute bus ride. I鈥檓 talking about a mile this way or two miles in the other. That opens up space to have the discussion.

Are they ready?

I mean, it might be stretching it to say that people are ready, but some are ready-adjacent. It was a lot harder 10 years ago, when my kids were starting school, than it is now. If we can tie all of these things together into a different kind of package of what integration means for parenting, for ideas of what school can be in your walkable, public-transport-y neighborhood, I think that there鈥檚 a good chance for optimism.

Maybe 飞别鈥檙别 not always having the conversation yet. We鈥檙e certainly not landing on integration every time, but 飞别鈥檙别 at least ready to talk.

And you hear people get defensive. That鈥檚 the other cool part. You have to explain why you鈥檙e not choosing an integrated school. So 飞别鈥檙别 developing talking points about all the usual reasons people give for why they can鈥檛 do it. 鈥淢y kid is a really kinesthetic learner.鈥� You鈥檝e heard it.

I have.

You know, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 want my kid to be the only white kid.鈥� 鈥淚 don鈥檛 want my kid to be a social experiment.鈥� You know, 鈥減lay-based models are so much better,鈥� all those progressive pedagogical arguments. If someone says to me, 鈥淚 really love 鈥� [best-selling British author and education expert who espouses greater creativity in schools], I know that this conversation is going to be difficult. 鈥淲e鈥檝e been pushing our kids too hard, so we really need a social-emotionally progressive curriculum or else 鈥︹��

Or else what? Your kid鈥檚 going to live in your basement when they鈥檙e 40? They鈥檙e going to be in and out of rehab?

What sorts of families seek you out at ?

Lots of people who live in a diverse neighborhood think, 鈥淗ey, I like it here, I have a certain amount of privilege of time and resources, and I should be involved in my neighborhood school. If I bought a house here and the housing prices were good enough for me, then shouldn鈥檛 the schools be too?鈥�

But the largest categories are 1) white and/or privileged parents who went to integrated schools and are like, 鈥淲hat the hell? Why aren鈥檛 there any integrated schools for my kid? I really value that.鈥� Or 2) white and/or privileged parents are showing up and saying, 鈥淚鈥檝e been thinking a lot about race and ethnicity in education and I need to think through this more,鈥� or 3) they鈥檙e coming in with 鈥淚 live in a gentrifying neighborhood and I kind of want to fix my neighborhood school! Integration!鈥�

Lots of paths in.

Yeah, but it鈥檚 really a competition with that urge to 鈥済et what鈥檚 best for your kid.鈥� And neighborhood schools, as you know, have been a rallying cry for segregation as frequently as 鈥� or more frequently than 鈥� a rallying cry for integration.

Neighborhood schools are school choice! They鈥檙e the original school choice !

Right! So when people are saying that we can鈥檛 deal with school integration because we have residential segregation, well 鈥� chicken and the egg. We had a lot of integrated communities before Brown v. Board, actually. But even in integrated communities, we have really segregated schools. So we have to start somewhere. Does that mean we shouldn鈥檛 do work on zoning or affordable housing? No. Of course not. Of course we need to deal with that too. But we can鈥檛 use it as an excuse not to do the school piece.

How do you get families to consider integration?

Integrated Schools鈥� job is to allow for different kinds of conversations to be had. And even more specifically, different kinds of questions to be asked. We鈥檙e trying to set up an integration ecosystem from a parent perspective.

Policy is important, but there鈥檚 so much that happens before and after policy that very few people are playing with. If 飞别鈥檙别 not talking about this at kids鈥� birthday parties, it might not matter that 飞别鈥檙别 at the state legislature. Because white, privileged people can get out of your damn policies.

So much hinges on calculations around white anxieties. How much pressure will they bear? Integrated Schools excavates those.

Right! We鈥檙e talking it through. In a really basic way, 飞别鈥檙别 building a constituency for brave policy. We鈥檙e building a noisy counter to the people who are going to say no to busing. We鈥檙e building people who can tell different stories loudly and proudly. Who have lived those stories. Who have built relationships in their communities by being in schools there.

Cajoling school board members to change policies is a heavy lift, but it鈥檚 nothing compared to being at every one of these damn birthday parties and preschool forums and soccer practices, you know, all of the places.

Also, I believe very strongly that we can鈥檛 just unleash white folks into global majority schools willy-nilly. You have to get folks who are willing to do the work of integration, not just opportunity-hoarding desegregation or gentrification. If 飞别鈥檙别 really talking about what true integration could mean 鈥� it鈥檚 revolutionary. It might not cure all of the world鈥檚 problems, but I think it would get at a lot of them.

Which is why it鈥檚 hard, right?

Right! These problems are millennia in the making! This is a deep hole!

So we have to do it well. And that鈥檚 50 times harder than just doing it. But the damage from doing integration poorly might, in fact, be worse than not doing it at all. So 飞别鈥檙别 trying to be pointed about asking parents who are thinking about sending their kids to integrated schools: Tell us not just about your intent, but about what you want your impact to be. Think about what kinds of things are going to get you to that place. Do you need to be the president of the PTA? These are often well-meaning people who really do care. How do they show up and get involved and be engaged? What does that look like if you鈥檙e giving up the part about getting your kid into the 鈥渂est鈥� school? Does it look like raising a ton of money for an organic garden?

Or perhaps you need to cut that off a little bit. Perhaps your job is just to show up and listen and build relationships 鈥� be a part of something at the school as opposed to trying to 鈥渇ix鈥� it.

Did you use this article in your work?

We鈥檇 love to hear how 蜜桃影视鈥檚 reporting is helping educators, researchers, and policymakers.