Join 蜜桃影视 and the Progressive Policy Institute at 2 p.m. ET Tuesday for a special conversation about how apprenticeships can better prepare young people for success in a changing economy 鈥� and what policymakers need to do to ensure every student gets a strong start on the path to a good job.

PPI鈥檚 Bruno Manno will be joined by Adele Burns, chief of the California Division of Apprenticeship Standards; Chris Harrington, director of ApprenticeshipNC; Taylor White, director of postsecondary pathways for youth at New America; and a pair of young apprentices.

Sign up for the Zoom or tune in to this page Tuesday at 2 p.m. ET to stream the event.

Related coverage on 蜜桃影视: 

• Apprenticeships Aimed at Boosting Child Care Careers Have Been Flourishing
  
• 鈥楽tage Is Shifting Rapidly鈥� for High Schools: Are States Helping Them Keep Up?
  
• What鈥檚 a College Degree Worth? It Depends on the Major
  
• Coalition Hopes to 鈥楢ccelerate鈥� Career Training, Apprenticeships

Students across the country will soon be able to receive Workforce Pell Grants to use toward tuition and fees for certain short-term workforce training programs.

Established by the in 2025, Workforce Pell Grants expand traditional to programs that are between 8-15 weeks, lead to a high-skill, high-wage, or in-demand job, result in a recognized postsecondary credential, and articulate credit into a certificate or degree program, among other requirements.

In December, the U.S. Department of Education (DOE) held a process to develop new rules for Workforce Pell Grants. In one week, negotiators reached an agreement on , which will be used as the basis of DOE鈥檚 forthcoming consensus rule. That consensus rule will be open to public comment before a final rule is published.

In the meantime, states are working to identify potentially eligible programs ahead of Workforce Pell鈥檚 anticipated launch on July 1, 2026. States play a critical role in implementing Workforce Pell 鈥� under the law and proposed regulations, governors must approve any eligible program before a federal approval process takes place.

However, during a Feb. 11 meeting of the , Jeff Cox, president of the N.C. Community College System, expressed caution about the number of programs that may ultimately qualify for Workforce Pell in the state due to the program鈥檚 federally-established . Eligible programs must demonstrate a 70% completion rate, a 70% job placement rate within 180 days, and a positive return on investment, demonstrated through a value-added .

鈥淛ust out of these initial screens 鈥� the number of hours and then the job placement and the completion rates 鈥� I think only about 4% or so of our overall short-term credential programs are going to qualify,鈥� Cox said.

The status of Workforce Pell in North Carolina

During its February meeting, the council heard an update on the status of Workforce Pell Grant implementation in North Carolina from Andrea DeSantis, assistant secretary for workforce solutions at the N.C. Department of Commerce.

DeSantis opened with an overview of Workforce Pell Grants, highlighting that they provide a new opportunity to quickly move students into the workforce through short-term training programs, but that eligible programs must meet high standards.

鈥淭his is really a huge departure from the way that federal funding happens right now and the accountability measures for institutions,鈥� DeSantis said.

DeSantis then outlined the federal timeline for Workforce Pell, noting that she participated as an alternate negotiator during DOE鈥� negotiated rulemaking process in December. DOE鈥檚 goal is to have a final rule by the spring, and according to , the program should launch on July 1.

鈥淭hat timeline is going to move quick, and that means us as states, we have to move quickly too,鈥� DeSantis said. 鈥淲hat will that mean in July? While we have not heard official dates from the Department of Ed, it means that the Department of Ed intends to be able to start reviewing applications from institutions that have programs that were approved at the state level.鈥�

As states consider potentially eligible programs, DeSantis said that it is not the federal government鈥檚 expectation that all short-term training programs will be eligible for Workforce Pell. Instead, she said, 鈥渟tates should take this as an opportunity to say, 鈥榃hat are the needs in communities, and what programs are really essential for us to improve and fund?’鈥�

DeSantis then provided an update on where North Carolina stands in Workforce Pell implementation. Since November 2025, staff from the Governor鈥檚 Office, Department of Commerce, and higher education agencies have worked with , a national consulting firm, to develop the state鈥檚 Workforce Pell approach.

This includes:

• Defining what a high-wage, high-skill, or in-demand job is: DeSantis said these definitions will build off assets from the within the N.C. Department of Commerce. To define in-demand jobs, DeSantis said LEAD has pulled a list of occupations that are in-demand at both the state and local levels. She added that high-skill jobs are those that require a license or additional postsecondary credential, and that no definition has been determined yet for what qualifies as a high-wage job. Importantly, to be eligible for Workforce Pell, a program must lead to a job that meets at least one of these three criteria. For example, a job that is in-demand but low-wage could still be eligible.
• Defining stackability and portability: These are two additional federal requirements for Workforce Pell 鈥� programs must result in a recognized credential, and they must articulate credit into a related certificate or degree program.
• Developing an application process: DeSantis said the group will also develop an application process that accounts for the data that a program must report and the high standards it must meet to qualify for Workforce Pell. 鈥淗ow do we leverage existing assets within the Department of Commerce and our as a potential pathway for institutions to apply?鈥� DeSantis said.
• Determining how Workforce Pell can be leveraged for apprenticeships: DeSantis said that Workforce Pell can be used to cover portions of the cost of related instruction for a Reegistered Apprenticeship Program, which is a component of the policy the group is working on.

In April, the state hopes to have a draft policy and application for Workforce Pell that would be available for public comment. On May 13, the , the state鈥檚 workforce development board, would review the policy and application.

鈥淎ssuming that the federal level has put out their final guidance, we would then plan to have an application available sometime in late May,鈥� said DeSantis. 鈥淭his would give us enough time to approve initial applications before the July deadline.鈥�

DeSantis also noted that the N.C. Community College System (NCCCS) has already published an initial , which is part of the system鈥檚 . This list includes short-term workforce courses and credentials that meet the time limits required by Workforce Pell 鈥� but not all of those programs will necessarily meet the grant鈥檚 additional eligibility requirements.

鈥淚nstitutions have received individualized data to see, 鈥極K, which programs do we offer at our own institutions 鈥� not just across the state 鈥� that we think could be eligible for Workforce Pell,鈥� based on the hour requirements, as well as that completion and job placement data, which is going to be really important,鈥� said DeSantis.

Although all Workforce Pell programs must have existed in their current format for at least one year, DeSantis said this is an opportunity for community colleges to have conversations with employers and consider what new programs or adjustments to current programs may be needed to meet workforce needs in the coming years.

鈥淭his is expected to be a slow start,鈥� DeSantis said of Workforce Pell鈥檚 launch. 鈥淭his is not intended to approve every program, but to really be about intentional design at the state and local level.鈥�

Cox echoed that sentiment, saying he is 鈥渁 little bit underwhelmed鈥� by the number of programs that may qualify for Workforce Pell.

鈥淚鈥檓 excited about it, but I also want to inject a little bit of caution around the level of impact we鈥檙e going to have right out of the gate,鈥� he said.

Updates on the council鈥檚 work

In addition to hearing this update on Workforce Pell, the council also reflected on its work in 2025 and discussed other key efforts that will help advance its goals.

In June 2025, the council outlining the state鈥檚 goals for workforce development, which are separated into four objectives: increasing attainment, expanding work-based education, focusing on key sectors, and highlighting workforce programs through a public outreach campaign. In December, the council released a that outlines 30 strategies to advance those goals.

Then, in January, the council鈥檚 co-chairs joined Gov. Josh Stein at an event to announce the state鈥檚 ranking as first for workforce development by .

鈥淲e now stand at a pivotal moment where strategy development is transitioning into action,鈥� said N.C. Secretary of Commerce Lee Lilley, who is also a council co-chair, at the February meeting. 鈥淎s we move forward today, our focus shifts toward implementation, accountability, and metrics, translating these strategies into meaningful outcomes for North Carolina鈥檚 workforce.鈥�

The council heard a short presentation on how the relates to the work of the council.

Annie Izod, executive director of the NCWorks Commission, shared that as of February, the council and NCWorks Commission had aligned each entities鈥� four committees. In December 2026, the council committees will sunset, and the NCWorks Commission will continue to monitor progress toward the state鈥檚 workforce development goals.

New funding for youth apprenticeships

On Feb. 10, Stein announced that he is directing discretionary funds allotted through the federal Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (WIOA) to to expand youth apprenticeships.

According to a , NC Career Launch 鈥渉elps businesses develop registered apprenticeship programs for students beginning in grades 11 and 12 in high-demand sectors like child care, health care, skilled trades, and advanced manufacturing.鈥�

This investment is connected to one of the council鈥檚 : to double the number of apprentices in the state, including both registered apprenticeships and apprenticeships. According to , youth apprenticeships can begin as early as 16 and are available in more than 1,200 occupations.

During the council鈥檚 February meeting, Kindl Detar, policy adviser to Stein, said youth apprenticeships allow employers to grow local talent early before students may drop out of the , and they allow students to earn and learn with pathways to career opportunities in their local communities.

According to Detar, the first year of the investment will focus on expanding existing youth apprenticeship programs that have wait lists and on expanding youth apprenticeships in the western part of the state as it continues to recover from .

鈥淲e know that making these apprenticeships work will require engagement from our employers,鈥� said Detar. 鈥淚n his announcement yesterday, the governor had a special call-out to employers to think about how these models of youth apprenticeships 鈥� can be beneficial to them, to not only provide opportunity, but to create that local workforce that they need.鈥�

NCCareers.org sees record number of users

First launched in July 2020, is the state鈥檚 career information system. It aggregates key information on jobs, wages, and pathways, providing career exploration tools to help North Carolinians on their education-to-workforce journey.

During the council鈥檚 meeting, Jamie Vaughn, senior analyst for market intelligence at the North Carolina Department of Commerce, shared that the website had 1 million users in the last 12 months 鈥� representing 95% growth from the previous year.

The website has information on wages and demand across more than 800 occupations that can be sorted by 16 sub-state regions. According to Vaughn, more than half of school districts in the state are to help meet the that all middle and high school students complete a career development plan.

Vaughn also previewed new features that will be added to the website, including business listings of local companies that may hire employees in specific occupations, and information to help high school students better understand what CTE courses are available at their school that will lead to CTE pathways.

Cecilia Holden, president and CEO of , said that one component of myfutureNC鈥檚 proposed Workforce Act of 2026 for the legislative short session is $1.5 million for NCCareers.org, which would equate to $1.50 per user based on 1 million annual users.

For more information on NCCareers.org, see this

The council鈥檚 next meeting will be held on May 13 from 10 to 11:30 a.m.

This first appeared on and is republished here under a .

A published Wednesday from the National Council on Teacher Quality found that teacher preparation programs have contributed to the stagnant growth in educator diversity, which is lagging behind the diversity of the nation鈥檚 adult population. While roughly of U.S. working-age adults identify with historically disadvantaged racial groups, such as Black, Native American or Hispanic, only 21% of teachers do.

The NCTQ analyzed 1,526 U.S. teacher colleges from the 2018-19 school year to 2022-23 in its report and found that 40% don鈥檛 produce graduating classes that are as diverse as their state鈥檚 educator workforce. 

About 21% of teachers in Alabama come from historically disadvantaged groups, versus 16% of candidates who graduate from preparation programs. In Washington, D.C., the educator workforce has a 69% diversity rate, but its teacher college graduates are at 32%. 

The most diverse programs are alternative certification pathways run by companies or nonprofits, but research shows that these options have lower standards than traditional colleges and lead to higher teacher turnover.

A diverse teacher workforce at schools improves academic performance, attendance, discipline and sense of belonging for students of color, according to the study. For example, who have one Black teacher are 13% more likely to graduate from high school and 19% more likely to go to college than their peers who didn鈥檛 have a teacher of color.

Too many teacher colleges are failing to produce diverse graduating classes and causing students to lose out, said Heather Peske, NCTQ president. 

鈥淲e know that a diverse teacher workforce benefits all students, and it especially benefits Black and brown students,鈥� she said. 鈥淭here’s a lot that we can do right now 鈥� on the part of teacher prep programs and states 鈥� to reduce the obstacles that particularly discourage Black and brown candidates from coming into the profession and becoming teachers.鈥�

The NCTQ report has three recommendations for state policymakers, schools and teacher colleges to increase workforce diversity: bolstering program enrollment by increasing teacher salaries, providing college stipends and introducing younger students to the education field. 

The report said teacher candidates also need more support to earn their certification, such as flexible course schedules and pay for completing required hours in the classroom before graduation. Districts should also improve hiring practices by developing strategies to recruit more school leaders of color, providing mentors to new teachers and improving work culture so educators from historically disadvantaged groups feel welcome, according to the report. 

Teacher preparation programs that have been the target of the federal government this year. In February, the Trump administration canceled millions of dollars in teacher training funding, a decision that鈥檚 still wrapped up in .

Peske said many of the NCTQ recommendations are race-neutral and can help all teacher candidates while improving workforce diversity. 

鈥淲e really need to focus on the fact that having a diverse teacher workforce means having a high-quality teacher workforce and thinking of practices that can support those goals,鈥� she said.

For nearly a decade, women have in overall prime-age labor force participation 鈥� strengthening local economies and contributing billions to GDP. The McKinsey Global Institute estimates that continuing to advance women鈥檚 equality could add trillions to global GDP, boosting incomes and living standards worldwide 鈥� for men and women alike.

Yet right now this progress is threatened by a multigenerational caregiving crisis鈥攕panning both child care and elder care.

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Since January, over 200,000 women have . Experts attribute this largely to reduced workplace flexibility and persistently limited child care access. Misty Heggeness of the University of Kansas reports labor force participation for women ages 25鈥�44 with children under five dropped from 69.7% to 66.9%.

At United WE, our research confirms the toll: women are than men to leave the workforce due to child care challenges. Sixty percent of women entrepreneurs say this barrier makes running their businesses harder, and millions live in child care deserts.

But the caregiving squeeze doesn鈥檛 stop there. The recent AARP and National Alliance for Caregiving 鈥溾�� report finds that 63 million Americans鈥攏early one in four adults鈥攏ow provide ongoing care for an adult or a child with a complex medical condition or disability, a staggering 45% increase since 2015.

Many juggle both roles: one in three caregivers, and almost half of those under 50 are part of the 鈥渟andwich generation,鈥� caring for both kids and aging relatives.

This crisis disproportionately affects women, but its consequences are felt in every corner of our economy. A by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce Foundation found states lose an average of $1 billion in economic activity each and every year due to breakdowns in child care access.

One expert put it : 鈥淭he economy鈥檚 basically telling half its talent to stay home.鈥�

The good news is that solutions are within reach, and even in deeply divided times, Republicans and Democrats are making common cause to make child care more affordable and accessible.

In Kansas, bipartisan action under Gov. Laura Kelly鈥檚 leadership is poised to create more child care slots in the next two years than the state did in the last 15 鈥� giving thousands of parents the ability to return to work or expand their businesses.

In Missouri, where more than 41% of counties do not have an accredited child care facility, legislation to help businesses offset the cost of child care won support from both parties. And a bipartisan commission appointed by Gov. Mike Kehoe is working on recommendations to streamline regulations so providers can open and operate more easily while protecting the health and safety of kids.

And at the federal level, despite a polarized Congress, progress has quietly continued. The recent tax bill tripled the employer-provided child care credit, offering new incentives for businesses to support working parents.

Now, parallel action is emerging for elder care鈥攕till slow, but gaining traction. Promising policy proposals include caregiver tax credits and support services, though much more is needed to meet the escalating demand.

At United WE, we believe the path forward lies in research, solutions and results. That鈥檚 our model for change鈥攁nd it works.

Today, as we approach the 105th anniversary of the 19th Amendment granting women the right to participate in our democracy, the time is now to break down this barrier to women鈥檚 full participation in our economy.

Suffragist J. Ellen Foster told delegates at the 1892 Republican National Convention: 鈥淲e are here to help you 鈥� and we are here to stay.鈥�

Women have more than delivered on that promise. Today, for the sake of our economy and our communities, it鈥檚 time policymakers and employers to do their part as well.

is part of States Newsroom, a nonprofit news network supported by grants and a coalition of donors as a 501c(3) public charity. Missouri Independent maintains editorial independence. Contact Editor Jason Hancock for questions: info@missouriindependent.com.

Droplets of blood red algae dance in a bubbling beaker in a Wai驶anae High School classroom, as Leih艒k奴 Elementary schoolchildren huddle around. 

Recent Wai驶anae graduate Hyrum Tom and teacher Tyson Arasato tell the visiting children all about the algae, limu kohu, a popular edible species native to Hawai驶i. The algae population is declining in the wild,  to feed the community and help the wild limu recover.

By next year, Arasato said, the school hopes to scale up from beakers to large tanks full of algae for the community to consume.

鈥淚nstead of them having to go out and pick it, where it鈥檚 not found as much, we鈥檒l let it restore outside in the wild,鈥� Arasato said. 鈥淭hen we can actually supply people with the food that they need 鈥� that鈥檚 the goal of aquaculture.鈥�

The Marine Science Learning Center is the only dedicated high school aquaculture center in the state, and it鈥檚 been expanding its operations in recent years to give students more hands-on experience cultivating and caring for species many believe could become the lifeblood of Hawai驶i鈥檚 food system and economy.

The state鈥檚 aquaculture industry is expected to boom from a $90 million a year industry to $600 million a year in the next decade 鈥� according to the Department of Agriculture 鈥� and researchers say it will soon face a dearth of workers, which needs to be addressed if the industry is going to reach its full potential.

But it鈥檚 something of a Catch-22: despite predictions of workforce shortages and future growth, few of the students who have gone through the Wai驶anae center have found jobs in the field.

Part of the challenge is that many of the existing jobs require college degrees, something that . A bigger issue is that jobs at any level of experience are limited at the moment.

鈥淭he big bottleneck is not that we can鈥檛 do workforce training,鈥� said Maria Haws, an aquaculture professor at the University of Hawai驶i Hilo. 鈥淚t鈥檚 that we need to grow the industry.鈥�

But the state has done little to invest in the industry in recent years and lawmakers have yet to heed calls from local industry leaders and researchers to encourage growth through regulatory reform or investments in infrastructure.

Now, as a major aquaculture producer shutters on the Big Island and another sues the state for crippling its business, concerns are growing over whether Hawai驶i can actually achieve its potential. 

Despite the uncertainty, leaders and students at the Marine Science Learning Center are continuing to build upon the center鈥檚 decades of research.

The school is now using grant funding to expand its footprint with new tanks, as part of its ultimate bid to boost Leeward O驶ahu鈥檚 food security and establish a hatchery for native fish to reestablish throughout the state. Those species include Wai驶anae鈥檚 namesake 驶anae 鈥� native mullet.

Restoring mullet鈥檚 place on the Westside is intended to help students connect with their heritage and sense of place, but also as a way to boost food self-sufficiency and address the region鈥檚 food insecurity, which is among the worst on O驶ahu.

鈥淲e need to get our fishponds functional again,鈥� learning center coordinator Dana Hoppe said. 鈥淵ou want to talk about food security? That鈥檚 food security right there.鈥�

Addressing Industry Challenges

Industry leaders have long said aquaculture is the most promising sector of agriculture for Hawai驶i, a claim in line with global trends that show  for farmed fish and other marine species is accelerating.

Hawai驶i, they said, has a key role to play in the U.S. and global aquaculture industries 鈥� but the state has to address multiple obstacles for that to happen, according to .

In addition to building a workforce pipeline, the state needs to simplify the regulatory landscape, to attract entrepreneurs and encourage more private and public investments in the sector.

, completed by an international aquaculture consultant group hired by the state, noted that the state needs to invest more in infrastructure to help foster that development, such as land and processing facilities.

But the workforce was a key issue, one nearly every aquaculture business surveyed noted. They struggled to find well-qualified candidates within the state, while also finding it difficult to attract out-of-state talent.

Without fixing the apparent workforce deficit, the report said, the state鈥檚 aquaculture outlook would only worsen.

But the state has yet to show substantial support for the aquaculture industry and workforce development, according to Sen. Glenn Wakai, a longtime proponent for aquaculture in the Legislature.

The industry鈥檚 potential to grow to $600 million a year by 2034 requires dual efforts, happening simultaneously, to ensure jobs are there for young graduates, Wakai said. One idea is to build spaces for budding aquaculture entrepreneurs and businesses, like agricultural parks, while also attracting established businesses to conduct research in the state.

But the model for such an effort 鈥� Hawai驶i Oceanic Science and Technology Park in Kona 鈥� has run into problems with water supply and tenants are suing the state for damages related to water quality.

Without the park, or more like it, graduates and the workforce will have nowhere to go but outside Hawai驶i, Waikai said.

鈥淜udos to Wai驶anae,鈥� Wakai said. 鈥淏ut when the kids all want to go to college, what kind of job opportunities will be here for them?鈥�

Teaching Rigorous Skills

Hoppe and learning center staff, including former students, recently picked up a shipment of speckled and colorful tilapia for a senior capstone project. 

The tilapia will continue to grow in their tanks as students adjust the level of salt in their water tanks, to gain a better understanding of how water salinity affects flavor. Hoppe said she鈥檚 hopeful that fish raised at the school will soon follow the path of ogo, a seaweed the school provides 鈥� about 250 pounds per month 鈥� to the community鈥檚 elderly through the 鈥�. 

Students learn to monitor water quality, salinity, fish health and a long list of complex tasks as part of their work. And they also pass on their knowledge to visiting school groups, Hoppe said.

“We make sure that the curriculum is rigorous science,鈥� Hoppe said. 鈥淏ut the skills are universal: Trying to teach them how to think critically, trying to teach them how to be responsible, trying to teach them values.鈥� 

Hoppe said the practical experience helps show students their own potential. 

And while students at Wai驶anae may not all make their way into the aquaculture industry, the education is not wasted, Hoppe said, nor does their final career destination matter that much.

鈥淭he skills are universal,鈥� she said.

Wai驶anae High School鈥檚 work has found support from lawmakers and state agencies, which fund many of the center鈥檚 projects, including the upcoming expansion.

The center is poised to begin work Thursday, installing new tanks and increasing the center鈥檚 footprint on campus, which will allow for more research in coming years.

Past students have investigated everything from raising shrimp, mullet and tilapia within one system, to an upcoming project focused on how salt levels in water influence the flavor of tilapia. The school is also part of a research collaboration with Big Island biotechnology firm Symbrosia on raising limu kohu.

Wai驶anae High School鈥檚 center is already unique from every other school in the state, with the only secondary learning center dedicated to aquaculture, uniquely positioning the roughly two dozen students enrolled each year to learn highly technical aspects of fish and algae farming.

In addition to Wai驶anae, four other schools statewide have learning centers focused more broadly on food and agriculture.

Waipahu High School is one of those schools, with brand new facilities dedicated to natural resources and agricultural education. Aquaculture is part of that, led in part by former shrimp farmer and Waipahu teacher Jeff Garvey.

Garvey has developed a workforce program to help build interest in aquaculture, alongside the University of Hawai驶i Hilo, which is the only college in the state to offer a full, four-year bachelor鈥檚 degree .

But even with a new 鈥渇ancy and chic鈥�  at Waipahu High School, Garvey said, it can be difficult to attract students to the field.

For many students, attaining a college degree is out of reach, according to marine center coordinator Hoppe. So getting a job in an industry that wants certain qualifications is difficult, despite their years of experience, making jobs in the trades more attractive and attainable.

But even college graduates are suffering. Some are forced to take other work due to a lack of opportunity within the industry, according to Maria Haws, a UH aquaculture professor and director of the Pacific Aquaculture and Coastal Resources Center.

One recent college graduate has just become a firefighter, Haws said, planning on saving money to later start her own farm due to the cost of getting started in Hawai驶i.

鈥淚f we cannot set up farms, and if families and small businesses can鈥檛 set up farms because of regulatory inhibitions, what鈥檚 the point of producing a bunch of well-trained students that will just go somewhere else and get paid a lot more?鈥� Haws said. 鈥淭here鈥檚 not enough business here to absorb them.鈥�

And while some students end up in research roles or as educators, Haws said,  on academic funding may also compromise that pipeline, too.

Haws said she hopes more lawmakers step up to address the shortcomings in the industry, in light of climate change, movements at the federal level and for the benefit of the state in general.

鈥淚f we have to import 80% of our seafood, yet we consume almost twice as much per capita as other states,鈥� Haws said, 鈥渨hat the heck are we really doing?鈥�

鈥溾�� is funded in part by grants from the Stupski Foundation, Ulupono Fund at the Hawai鈥榠 Community Foundation and the Frost Family Foundation.

But now the department she wants to lead has abruptly canceled more than $600 million in grants designed to prepare teachers, especially in high-need schools.

The cancellations include a $3.38 million grant to in Fairfield, Connecticut, where McMahon serves on the Board of Trustees. The funds supported a program focused on recruiting special education teachers and strengthening instruction in STEM subjects. 

The university was among 20 recent recipients of a Teacher Quality Partnership grant, a program that aimed to attract and prepare a more diverse educator workforce. In response to Biden administration priorities, several of the grantees targeted the funds 鈥� $70 million in 2024 鈥� toward recruiting and training future educators from underrepresented communities. But now those goals put organizations at odds with the Trump administration鈥檚 crackdown on diversity, equity and inclusion programs.

鈥淲ithout warning all funds were swept, thus all employees on the grant were terminated without cause or warning,鈥� Erin Ramirez, an associate professor at California State University Monterey Bay, said in an email.

Ramirez said her university鈥檚 $5.7 million grant was 鈥渋llegally terminated.鈥� The funds were supporting an alternative teacher preparation program that aimed to draw 1,350 residents of the central California region into teaching in their local school districts. The revocation of funds, including $3.76 million in scholarships, will result in larger class sizes, higher teacher turnover and 鈥渆xacerbates existing workforce shortages and economic instability,鈥� according to a summary Ramirez provided. 

In letters sent to grantees last week, Mark Washington, the department鈥檚 deputy assistant secretary for management and planning, said the cancelled grants were 鈥渋nconsistent with, and no longer effectuates, department priorities鈥� and could 鈥渦nlawfully discriminate鈥� based on race or other characteristics. 

In a , the department cited some of the activities it found objectionable, such as workshops on 鈥渂uilding cultural competence鈥� and an emphasis on social justice activism. Grantees have until March 12 to challenge the department鈥檚 decision.

Also among the cancellations were Supporting Effective Educator Development grants, which sought to train more highly effective educators. TNTP, a nonprofit that aimed to prepare almost 750 teachers to work in the Austin, Baltimore and the Clark County school districts, and , which worked to address a teacher shortage in New Orleans schools, were among those affected.  

鈥淣ot only does it feel like chaos, it just feels disheartening,鈥� said Libby Bain, executive director of talent at New Schools for New Orleans, one of the organizations working on the grant. The funds supported nearly 300 high school students in nine schools who were earning credit toward an education major in college. Schools might have to cancel summer school, she added, because the grant also paid for the aspiring teachers to work as tutors to gain extra experience.

鈥淭hey’re going into a field that already feels hard to go into,鈥� Bain said. 鈥淣ow this thing that they were so excited about at 17 or 18 is being taken away.鈥�

Three-year grants were last and would have ended in September. The department is arguing that under , it has a right to terminate grants early if they are no longer in line with the administration鈥檚 goals. But some grantees say they plan to appeal, and Julia Martin, director of policy and government affairs at the Bruman Group, a Washington law firm, added, 鈥淲e鈥檒l likely see some litigation.鈥�

鈥楾he next generation of teachers鈥�

Both grant programs help lower the cost of becoming a teacher through scholarships and stipends that help defray housing expenses, especially for teacher education students completing their training in higher-priced urban areas. The universities and nonprofits often focus on recruiting teachers for math, special education and other hard-to-fill subject areas. The grants also pay for research staff who evaluate which aspects of preparation programs, like having a mentor, are more likely to keep novice teachers in the field.

鈥淚 have a lot of concerns over what’s going to happen to aspiring teachers in areas where we already had local teaching shortages,鈥� said Kathlene Campbell, CEO of the National Center for Teacher Residencies, which had a $6.3 million grant that was cancelled. 

The center was working with 13 organizations, including several historically Black colleges and universities, in four states. Some students might not complete their program if they can鈥檛 cover tuition and fees on their own, Campbell said. She was still collecting data on how many staff members have lost their jobs because of the cuts. 

鈥淚f we lose the people who are preparing the next generation of teachers, as well as a significant portion of aspiring teachers, we could see a really big problem in a couple of years,鈥� she said.

Such programs seek to respond to multiple challenges in K-12 classrooms. Over 400,000 teaching positions last year were either unfilled or were staffed by someone without the proper credentials, according to the .  

The nation鈥檚 public schools also continue to grow more racially diverse. By 2030, Hispanic students are projected to make up a third of enrollment. Between 2012 and 2022, the percentage of white and Black students in the nation鈥檚 classrooms fell, while there was an increase in Asian students and those of two or more races. A diverse teacher workforce has been shown to have positive effects on students, including higher math and reading , regardless of students鈥� race. Black students matched with Black teachers are also more likely to and less likely to be identified for .

The education department鈥檚 move to pull funding for the programs came ahead of its Friday 鈥溾�� letter putting districts on notice that any efforts that could be perceived as encouraging DEI would not be tolerated. 

In the letter, Craig Trainor, acting assistant secretary for civil rights, discouraged schools 鈥渇rom using race in decisions pertaining to admissions, hiring, promotion, compensation, financial aid, scholarships, prizes, administrative support, discipline, housing, graduation ceremonies, and all other aspects of student, academic, and campus life.鈥� And he encouraged those who think any programs or activities violate laws against discrimination to file a complaint with the Office for Civil Rights.

Campbell, with the teacher residency organization, said there鈥檚 a misunderstanding over how the programs view diversity.

鈥淚ndividuals who come from a different socioeconomic status are now able to become teachers when they didn’t think they could afford to do so,鈥� she said.

And Stephanie Cross, an assistant professor who was preparing teachers to work in Atlanta Public Schools, said her program didn鈥檛 discriminate against anyone who wanted to be in the program based on race.

The department鈥檚 DEI purge 鈥� in keeping with President Donald Trump鈥檚 inauguration day 鈥� explains why officials turned against the grant programs, but some observers also question whether they offered taxpayers a good return on their investment. Chad Aldeman, who conducts research on teacher workforce issues, said the Teacher Quality Partnership and the Supporting Effective Educator Development programs 鈥渁ren鈥檛 exactly screaming cost-effectiveness.鈥� One Teacher Quality Partnership grant for aimed to prepare 60 teachers and administrators in South Carolina. 

鈥淲ith this kind of money, the more effective route would probably be paying people directly,鈥� he said. 鈥淢y preference would be paying in-service teachers who demonstrate strong results and are serving in hard-to-staff roles, rather than focusing on the supply side.鈥�

But Bain, in New Orleans, said higher pay alone might get people into teaching, but won鈥檛 necessarily keep them there.

The cancellation of the grants also seems to contradict other signals from the new administration and Trump鈥檚 supporters in Congress. Trump nominated former Tennessee education chief Penny Schwinn, who has championed 鈥済row-your-own鈥� teacher preparation initiatives, to serve as deputy education secretary.

Tennessee was the first state to implement a teacher apprenticeship program registered with the Department of Labor. Forty-four states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico have . At the time, the effort would 鈥渞emove barriers to becoming an educator for people from all backgrounds.鈥�

And during McMahon鈥檚 hearing last week, Sen Tommy Tuberville, an Alabama Republican, focused on getting more teachers in the classroom. 

鈥淲e need teachers,鈥� he said. 鈥淲e need people in the classroom teaching these kids. Hold them accountable and put more money in the teachers and less money in administrators. I think we鈥檇 be a heck of a lot better off.鈥�

Disclosure: Chad Aldeman, who writes about school finance and teacher compensation, is a regular contributor to 蜜桃影视.

On this episode, John Bailey, who advises on AI and innovation at a number of organizations, including the American Enterprise Institute, Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, and more, joins Michael and Diane. They discuss AI鈥檚 potential to democratize access to expertise, weigh the costs and benefits of its efficiency-boosting applications, and consider how it will change skills required for the workforce of the future.

Listen to the episode below. A full transcript follows.

Michael Horn: Hi, everyone. Michael Horn here. What you’re about to hear is a conversation that Diane and I recorded with John Bailey as part of our series exploring the impact of AI on education, from the good to the bad. Here are two things that grabbed me about this episode that you’re about to hear. First, John made the point that this technology is really different from anything we’ve seen before. Specifically, how these large language models could, from the get-go, produce artifacts of work that would rival what an entry-level person in a variety of professions would create. And how we’re just scratching the surface of their capabilities. And most people don’t even realize that yet. So what could this mean for education? Second was John’s observation that just because we can do something faster doesn’t mean it’s being done

better. Said differently, making the wrong work more efficient isn’t necessarily the right solution. Now, when we finished up the interview, I had several reflections. But one I wanted to share with you now is this. John’s big framing is that through AI, everyone now has access to an expert in virtually every field. So if the internet democratized access to information, the analogy essentially is AI is democratizing access to expertise. But I’m curious if someone isn’t as skilled or knowledgeable or experienced as John, would they know what to do with or how to use such an expert at their fingertips? I’m excited to be in conversation with Diane for more sensemaking after we’ve talked with a number of people. And we’d love to hear your thoughts and reflections. So please, please share, whether over social media or by dropping us an email through my website at michaelbhorn.com. But for now, I hope you enjoy this conversation on Class Disrupted.

Diane Tavenner: This is Class Disrupted, season six, and the first. I know. Can you believe it? The first of our AI interviews. And we, in this case, we have the first best person, John Bailey, as our guest. Hey, Michael.

Michael Horn: Hey, Diane. Good to see you.

Diane Tavenner: It is always great to see you. There’s so many things we could talk about. But I’m really eager to jump in today to our topics. We’re going to go there right away. When we kicked off last season of this podcast, Class Disrupted, we said that one of the things that we really wanted to delve deeper into was our curiosity around AI. And it’s hard not to be curious about AI right now. In our most recent episode, we were pretty straightforward about kind of where each of us are at this point in time and our understanding and our perspectives. And we overviewed some of the kind of current debates that are taking place specifically around education and AI. And today we get to go deeper with someone who, I think you’ll agree with me, frankly, knows a lot more about AI than both of us.

Michael Horn: So I agree with that. I think it’s very fair. It’s one of the many reasons I’m excited for this conversation, because, as you said, it’s going to be the first of many where we bring folks on who, frankly, have very different views from each other around the impact of AI, sometimes from ourselves as well. And so to start this, we’re welcoming back someone to the show who’s been with us, I think, twice before. So this is like a three peat, if you will. So he’s clearly one of our favorites. None other than John Bailey.

John Bailey: It’s so, so good to be on. Congrats. Six seasons. That’s huge.

Michael Horn: Yeah, we’re still kicking, right?

Diane Tavenner: Thank you. And just in case anyone has missed John previously, quick, quick background here. John’s served in many, many posts in the state and federal government around education and domestic policy more generally. He’s a fellow at AEI. He holds numerous posts supporting different foundations. I could go on and on and on, but what some people might not know, John, is that you originally entered education as an expert on technology and ed. And, you know, we’ll hear that expertise coming through because you have gone deep in the world of AI and how it’s going to impact education, and so, welcome. We are so excited to have you back.

John Bailey: Oh, my gosh, I’m so excited to be here, and I just admire both of you and I’ve learned so much from you. So it’s so good to be on the show today.

John鈥檚 Journey to Education AI Work

Diane Tavenner: Well, before we get into a series of questions we have for you, we’d love to just start with how, I guess how. And maybe it’s a how/why did you go so deep into AI specifically? We know you have a lot of experience with sort of frontier models, and maybe you can describe that term for us as well as we sort of begin this conversation. But tell us how you jumped into the deep end and come to this conversation.

John Bailey: It’s such a good question. And it’s also like, my point of entry into this was interesting because, as you mentioned, I’ve been involved in a lot of technology and policy intersections for a number of years, including in education. And if I have to admit, like, I’ve been part of a lot of the hype of, like, we really think technology can personalize learning. And often that promise was just unmet. And I think there was, like, potential there, but it was really hard to actualize that potential. And so I just want to admit up front, like, I was part of that cycle for a number of years. And. And then what happened was when ChatGPT came out in December of 2022, everyone had sort of like a moment of ChatGPT, and for me, it wasn’t getting it to write a song or, you know, a rap song or. Or a press release. It was. I was sitting next to someone with a venture team and I said, what is, like, what is an email you would ask an associate to do to write a draft term sheet? And she gave me three sentences. I put it in ChatGPT and it spit back something that she said was a good first draft, good enough for her that she would actually run with it and edit it. And I was like, oh, this is very different. And then it just sort of started this process of seeing, like, what else could it do? And it just became insanely fun to kind of play with it. And then I was posting a lot of this on Twitter, and that caught the attention of some of the AI companies. And then they gave me early access. So I got to play with something called Code Interpreter for OpenAI, which was the ability of analyzing spreadsheets and data files, and then did some work with Google beta testing, Bard, and a handful of other things as well. And so I get to work with some of the companies now on safety and alignment testing, but also seeing kind of a little bit what’s over the horizon, Google Notebook LM I’ve been playing with for the better part of Over a year and giving them some feedback on it. So I think what’s happened though is that for me this feels very, very different from all the other technologies I’ve been exposed to at least over the last 20 years. And that has caught my excitement. I’ve rearranged my entire work portfolio to spend more time on this, just because it’s rare to see something that I think is going to be so transformative. I don’t think that’s going to be immediate. I think that’s going to play out over years and over decades. But also just the pace at which this technology is improving and new capabilities are being introduced is something like I’ve never experienced. In just the last two weeks of December, you saw so many announcements from OpenAI and Google that you can’t even wrap your heads around it. So better models that do deeper reasoning did not get a lot of attention. But OpenAI released Vision Understanding so now you can use your camera. And so I walked around a farmer’s market and it analyzed all the produce and the meats and it was giving me recipes on the fly.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah, we were playing with it at the holiday dinner table. Yeah. And just like what, what’s on the table and what are ,you know, and, and I think the amazing thing was with my 82 year old mother in law who was like into it and so, and wanted us to get it on her phone so she could go show her friends.

John Bailey: Oh yeah, it’s. Yeah. I mean it just feels different. It feels like something I want to just dedicate a lot more time and attention to understanding it. Both the benefits, lots of risks, lots of challenges on it. But it just like I’ve seen, you know, my mom’s using it to your point, like it’s just an advanced voice and the style of. Is just great entertainment for kids too with telling stories and whatnot. So anyway, so that’s my journey into this space.

The Best Case Scenario for AI 

Michael Horn: My kids have started to leapfrog me by just taking their search inquiries right to ChatGPT themselves and then get frustrated with some of the answers. Let’s dive in then John, because you’re getting to see a lot of these large language models clearly up close. You’re getting to experiment and help advise these companies that are at the leading edge in many cases. And I think what we want to do in these conversations, frankly is have both the advocates for and skeptics of AI and you clearly have a little bit of both from what you just said, make the case for both sides. You know, how’s it going to impact positively, how’s it going to impact negatively? So we can start to unpack the contours and figure out where the puck’s really going in classrooms and schools. And so I’d love you to start with this, which is to make the argument for how AI is going to positively impact education first. So leave aside your concerns and skepticisms for a moment and in your mind, like what’s the bull case, if you will, for AI?

John Bailey: One is, I think you have to do a lot, I’ve been wrestling with this a little bit. I think most of the other technologies up until this point have been about democratizing access to information. So that’s everything from the printing press to the computer, like CDs and with disks to then the Internet, the Internet democratized access to Wikipedia and you could get any information you want within your fingertips for almost no cost whatsoever. What I think is different about this technology is that it’s access to expertise and it’s driving the cost of accessing expertise almost to zero. And the way to think about that is that these general purpose technologies, you can give them sort of a role, a Persona to adopt. So they could be a curriculum expert, they could be a lesson planning expert, they could be a tutoring, and that’s all done using natural language, English language. And that unlocks this expertise that can take this vast amounts of information that’s in its training set or whatever specific types of information you give it, and it can apply that expertise towards different, you know, Michael, in your case, jobs to be done. And so for the first time, teachers have experts available at their fingertips, just typing to them the way they would type to a consultant. So give me a lesson plan. Here’s an IEP of a student, help me develop three lessons that I can use for that student that’s based on their learning challenges and the interests that they care about. So I think that’s going to unlock both, it’s going to be an enormous productivity tool for teachers potentially. I think it’s also going to be an amazing tutoring mechanism for a lot of students as well. Not just because they’ll be able to type to the student, but as we were just talking about, this advanced voice is very amazing in terms of the way it can be very empathetic and encouraging and sort of prompting and pushing students, it can analyze their voice. And then this vision understanding which was just sort of introduced. Google’s had this in a studio kind of lab format for a couple months now, but I think that’s going to just unlock, imagine a student to be able to do a project and presentation and having an AI system give them feedback and encouragement. That is like science fiction two years ago. And it feels like it’s very much within the realm of possibility. Maybe not right now, but you see the building blocks for where that could actually be assembled into a pretty powerful set of tools for both teachers as well as students.

Diane Tavenner: So John, when you, when you step back from everything you sort of just described of what’s possible in schools, teachers. Well you didn’t say schools. So among teachers and students, I sort of mental mapped a school on top of that concept. What part of that do you actually believe is going to be real, you know, for students and teachers and why. And maybe I think you’re probably going to put a timeline on it too is my guess based on what you’re saying.

John Bailey: Yeah, I think, I mean if other industries are a bit of a roadmap here, what you’re seeing in almost all the other sectors is that where AI is getting deployed first is a lot of back office functions. It’s in their IT shops. With coding, we don’t have that in education. But there are other, a lot of back office things where again the benefits can be pretty high and the risks of it being wrong are a little bit less than if like it’s engaging in a tutoring lesson with a student and hallucinating. That’s like high risk. Right. And so, you know, I suspect we’ll see a lot more sort of back office improving parent communications. I think we could see this, you know, beginning. There’s already been, you know, decades of legacy of trying to use AI or technology computer based scoring for assessments. I could imagine that. And then I think you’re going to see it roll out with a handful of tools for teachers. You’re seeing companies like that already with like brisk teaching. But also, I mean all these capabilities we were just talking about with Google, I mean they, if the moment they flick a switch and roll that out over Google classroom, that’s bringing AI into 60, 65% of classrooms and teachers around the country. And, so I think what you’re going to see is a lot of teacher productivity tools and then over the next, let me call it two to five years, a lot more sort of student facing things. As those technologies mature and as we build more robust products around it that have some of the safeguards that you want and need that ensure accuracy and quality as well as safety, I think for students as well. So I think there’ll be a lot of potential, but I think we’ll roll it out to students over a longer period of time. Meanwhile, like the teacher productivity, you know, enhancements for this could be pretty huge immediately.

The Risks

Michael Horn: It’s interesting to think about building off that Google classroom platform and just the access. Right. That solves in terms of distribution that perhaps historical products have struggled with in schools and gaining access to teachers and students. Let’s turn to the other side for a moment, John, and just like, where is AI not going to help things with teachers, students, schools, learning, you know, what’s sort of the, the place that people are dreaming up right now that AI is going to do something and you’re like, I just don’t buy it.

John Bailey: Oh, it’s interesting. Don’t buy that’s a different I, where I was going to go. I worry a little bit of, just because something done faster doesn’t mean it’s done better. And I know like, if any of the white papers are like, teachers should always be in the loop and teachers should always use their judgment, but teachers are also human. And I think one of the aspects of human is that if you’re overworked and you’re tired, sometimes the fastest response is the one you go with just because you’re just, you’re trying to maximize your time. And that’s one of the reasons we see teachers using like not great instructional quality resources from Pinterest, you know, and from Teacher Pay Teachers and from some of these other websites. That is a problem that exists now that I worry AI will exasperate. You know, if you’re a teacher and say, give me a lesson plan on literacy or reading something of reading in the third grade, you have no idea if that’s based on the science of reading, if it’s based on, if it’s aligned to your curriculum, if it’s adding coherence. And so there, there could be a sense of this instead of really augmenting a teacher’s judgment it could lessen it. In the same way that I think we worry about this with students, that part of the way you learn is through struggle, and struggle comes with not writing a perfect first draft. It comes from the first draft, the second draft, and the iterations and revisions on top of it. And I worry that the moment like students have just have a button that can automatically improve a paper, a paragraph or a sentence, they’re atrophying a muscle that is really critically important for this going forward. And then lastly, you know, we’re in the midst of this national discourse and debate right now about social media and phones and is that leading to more social isolation, loneliness and mental health issues with young people and inject into this these AI tools that I think as much as people say this will never happen, the risk of an AI companion where you’re talking, literally talking to an AI that’s empathetic and warm and adopting Personas and that’s going to be easier than the friction of talking to real life people. And so I worry that there’s a scenario where this AI companions will start leading to exacerbating the social disconnectedness and divide. And that is something that if you look at kind of the headlines that we’ve already had a couple cases with some tragic situations with kids who have committed suicide, I don’t think it was because entirely of the AI, but the AI was a contributing factor in that. And that’s something I think if we want to get ahead of where we are in the social media debate now, that’s something we should be thinking about researching and adding some guardrails to as well.

Diane Tavenner: John, I’m wondering, as you’re sharing these perspectives, how you think about. I guess what’s coming up for me is I feel like the main structures of school and education are still in place. And I agree with you, like the efficiency plays are the first places people go and does AI sort of risk reinforcing the existing model of school and education because it will make it more efficient? So like if teachers were just like barely, barely holding on and now we can keep everything sort of the same but just give them this like boost of efficiency we can keep things the way that they were. And obviously I’m biased because, you know, I want to, yeah, change up the way, pull apart everything but I’m curious just how you think about that, especially as things will unfold over time and like the easy places to start and the asymmetry of adoption too, you know, I mean, not every teacher in America has even ever logged into ChatGPT before. And then there’s some that are like power users at this point.

John Bailey: Yeah, I mean a common theme for both of your works and including over the six years you’ve done the series too, has been, you know, we have this system and institutions within the system that are remarkably resistant to change. And I think what we’ve seen is like technology doesn’t change a system. The systems have to change to accommodate and harness and leverage the benefits of whatever technology or sort of new innovation has been introduced to it. So I’m a little skeptical there. I think you’re going to have capabilities of AI outpacing the institution’s ability to harness that. It’s going to take time to figure out what that looks like and what that means going forward. I do, I come back though to this idea of like it’s access to expertise and I wonder if that mental model starts unlocking things as well, that if you’re a school principal, all of a sudden you have a parent communication marketing expert just by asking it to be that Persona and then giving it some tasks to do. And if you’re a teacher, it means all of a sudden every teacher in America can have a teaching assistant like a TA that is available to help on a variety of different tasks. And going back to what Michael’s point was saying with like Google Classroom, imagine if you’re a teacher, you’re in Google Classroom and you have your TA that’s able to look at student folders and just answer questions. You have. Like, I see like John and Michael really struggling in algebra what are some ways I could put them in a small group and give them an assignment that would resonate with both of their interests and help them scaffold into the next lesson? That was impossible to do before. Like that those three sentences could easily do that. And, and that’s why I think you’re going to see this idea of assistance very much kind of entering not just the education narrative but also the, the more sort of broader corporate landscape as well. Where you see that also by the way, is, is a little bit in how OpenAI is thinking about the pricing for this. There is an OpenAI model. Most people probably didn’t see it. The most robust, smartest and the one that has the most reasoning and they’re charging $200 a month for that. And most people are like oh my gosh, like I would never pay $200 a month for software. And that’s because it’s the wrong way to think about this as a software. The way to think about it is will you easily spend that much on a consultant or in a part time staff person. So OpenAI is even adopting almost like a labor market pricing strategy or the expertise that they’re giving you. And so I think this is an amazing thing for schools to think about at time of tight budgets is, you know, again, if you want to maximize your teachers, how can this fill different types of labor market roles in the education system to enhance and support teachers in the limited staff, given budget tensions that are going to be coming out in the next couple of years here.

How AI Is Changing the Skills Landscape

Michael Horn: It’s interesting hearing you say that and draw that analogy, John, because actually Clay Christensen, before he passed away, one of the big interests he had was how do you scale coaching models in education, in health care, in lots of these sort of very social realms as the recipe, if you will, for sustained behavior change and success and things of that nature. Never got to really dig into it and write about it. But as I’m hearing you talk about this, it suggests that maybe a disruption of that might be afoot. I guess that’s the question I want to lean into though, as well, which is you named a few things that this could hurt. And so the flip side of it being a great coach is that it might take away social interaction. Or you talked about essay writing and that, you know, actually the learning is in the process of doing it in revision and sort of pushing the easy button, if you will. Right. Jumps you ahead to the product, but not necessarily the learning and the struggle from it. I guess what I’m curious about, and I’m going to borrow an analogy that Brewer Saxberg, former chief learning scientist, I think was his title at CZI Chan, Zuckerberg Initiative and you know, Kaplan and K12 and a variety of places. He talked a lot about how Aristotle back in the day worried a lot about as the written word became a thing, that people weren’t going to be able to memorize Homeric length epic poems anymore. Aristotle was absolutely right. And I don’t know that we regret the fact that most of us.

John Bailey: Speak for yourself, Michael.

Michael Horn: Two of the three here could do it, but I, so but the question I guess would be, you know, of these things that might hurt, which are really going to, are they still going to matter in the future or are there going to be other things that we, you know, other behaviors or things that are more relevant in the future? And how do you think about sort of that substitution versus ease versus actually like really, you know, frankly, I think when you talk about social interaction that could be, forget about disruptive, that could be quite destructive.

John Bailey: Yeah, no, it’s, it’s a great question. It’s a good point. It’s also this is an area where some of the best studies of this are happening in the labor market and looking at like, how is AI changing? There was just one study I was just reading today with Larry Summers and Deming from Harvard that are looking at, you know, AI, one of the things that they’re finding is AI is chipping away at some of the entry level jobs. It is for the same reason that, you know, you don’t like, if I’m in Congress, now all of a sudden, I don’t need an intern to just summarize legislation. I have something could summarize it for me better in five seconds. And that actually hurts that intern because they’re not developing the skills of reading legislation and analyzing and summarizing it. But it also means the other thing that they’re talking about in labor market sort of terminology is that it’s really raising the skills for those entry level jobs. Now you’re not expected to summarize, now you’re expected to do more and a higher level cognitive functions with it. That, that’s interesting. But I also mean that’s going to place a huge strain on our education system. Like if you’re looking at just the results of TIMSS and NAEP and where kids are, they’re not in that higher cognitive function in terms of being able to ask those questions or do those capabilities. And so in many ways I think if this is going to change the future of work and going to raise the level of what’s expected, that’s going to put more strain on our education system to make sure that we get kids that are capable of doing all those different things. I think about that with myself. Like I’m not like, there are many people who are Excel gurus, very good at analyzing data and they do P tests and other things that statistical things that are very important and I would not be able to do. And this was one of the first experiences with code interpreter, with OpenAI is that all of a sudden I had again an expert, a data analyst who could do that for me. But what that meant is that for work I can no longer say, well that’s not something I can do. Now I could do it because I had an analyst that could help me with it and that in some ways don’t tell my employers this, but like now that could like raise their expectations for me as well. But I have to get smart on the type of questions and the type of direction to give it in order to get the answers that I can use to synthesize into some sort of response. So anyway, I think this is going to be a very messy way. It’s going to change the labor markets, but it feels like it’s lowering the floor in many respects and access to these higher cognitive tasks, which in turn then raises expectations in a lot of different ways. And that’s very powerful. But it’s also, I think it probably a huge strain on our human capital systems. Did I answer your question?

Michael Horn: Yeah, I think it does. Before I think Diane has another set of questions. But before we go there, just one quick follow up, which is it strikes me that then you knowing that you can ask those sorts of questions and sort of having a sense of the contours, right of like what are relevant questions, what are. What is knowledge base that is out there, that I could ask this in meaningful ways and how to structure it. Like those are topics that I might not need to know all the mechanics of how to do it, but I need to know that they are questions that can be asked and, and the relevant place to ask them is that a鈥here am I on or off on that?

John Bailey: Yeah, I think that’s right and also again, this is where AI is amazing. Like you could give it a spreadsheet and say what are 20 questions you can ask with this? Or give me 20 insights that you glean from it if you don’t know where to. Like I’ve started again, treating a lot of AI people will tell you not to do this, but if you treat it, if you treat it a little bit, almost as if you’re talking to a person, it does unlock a lot of capabilities. There’s risks of doing that. But also I just find sometimes like I want to do X, like give me the prompt in which to do that or I want to do Y. Like what are. Ask me all the questions you need to be able to answer that. And then it asks me 10 questions and then spits back an answer. I just helped someone with, she’s coming up with a name for her social impact advisory firm and so we created a little GPT and AI assistant that was a brand advisor and it asked her questions the way a brand advisor would and then it spit back 20 names and one of them she’s going with. And so that’s like incredible. But again, she had expertise that could ask questions and facilitate a conversation to unlock some of her thoughts and preferences and then spit back an answer from it.

The Interplay Between AI and Policy

Diane Tavenner: So much there especially given my current focus of sort of 15 to 25 year olds and who are going to be intensely impacted by, I think every, are already intensely, I think impacted by everything you’re talking about. I want to flip over to policy and I want to come at it from the angle of, you know, most people think about AI policy around safety and you know, what are we controlling and what are we, you know, protecting people from, et cetera. But let’s come from the other direction that you sort of introduced a little bit ago about the structure of education in schools. We’ve got some pretty interesting policy movement happening in education right now. We are seeing the rise of ESAs or educational savings accounts, which, you know, puts money in the hands of families to spend it where they want to spend it. We’re seeing a lot of states adopt sort of portraits of a graduate or graduate profile that are these more inclusive, holistic views of like what someone should be able to graduate knowing, doing, being able to do and an openness to how they actually get to that place and the different pathways. Talk to me about like those things going on sort of in the policy world and AI happening over here is that kind of the intersection where we could sort of start seeing some structural differences. And again like a more user centered approach to educate, you know, a student centered approach potentially. So I’m curious your thoughts there.

John Bailey: No, I think it could, I think it’s a yes. It’s a yes, but in some ways the yes is, you know, I think there’s a whole class of ways of using AI that is about navigating and navigating really complex systems. And ESAs are one of those. And I think, you know, I. One of the first GPTS I built on OpenAI to demo this was, like if you go to Arizona’s ESA, it’s like two websites, there’s a weird random Excel file of expenses and then PDFs that like a 78 page PDF. And again that was the best that team could do with limited resources and also with the limited technologies. And I just put that into a GPT and all of a sudden it was a bilingual parent friendly navigator. And if you said can I use funds for Sony PlayStation? It didn’t say no, you’re a terrible parent. It used warm empathetic letter answers to say like no, you can’t and here’s the reasons why, but here’s what you can do. And it was all conversational. And I think this friction of dealing with education systems and education policy could be immensely improved by using AI. Another example, I have a friend, she has kids in a school district and they send these terrible absentee reports and I say terrible. It’s like her daughter’s name is capitalized. So it’s like shouting. And then it’s like has missed six days of school. It’s very, it is reading, reading like a hostage like script. It’s like your daughter’s missed six days of school. It’s very important for her to go to school. We are here to help you. And then it does this weird bar chart at the bottom that’s like meaningless and like I just gave it to ChatGPT as an image and say make this better and give three questions a parent could ask their kid for why they might be absent. Amazing. It was like. And that I did in an Uber ride crossing the Key bridge in Washington D.C. like, you know, that’s an amazing set of powerful tools that can remove friction and help improve the system to make it work better for parents and for kids and also teachers and administrators too. So the but on all this is like, I think that’s going to be powerful and it’s going to make policy easier. I’m still, until we create more flexible ways for teachers to teach, for students to learn and students to engage in different types of learning experiences, I just think we’re going to end up boxing and limiting a lot of this technology capabilities. On the portraits of a graduate. I do think like again, an easy navigator on this is to take student work and student interests and student grades and say I’m not really sure where to go, like help me, Ask me the 10 questions I need to figure out. Should I pursue an apprenticeship program, a two year degree or a four year degree. It feels like again, we’re very close to being able to do something that, you know, it may not be perfect, but it’s much better than what the vast majority of students have access to right now. And if it helps them make a better decision in this process and pick a better path that’s based on their interests and their passions and their skills and their abilities. That’s great. Like we should do everything we can to help maximize that.

Diane Tavenner: Awesome. Maybe just to round out anything. What policy do you think we should be keeping our eyes on as we focus on education in relation to AI? What should we be worried about? What should we be thinking about? What should we be paying attention to? I know you spend a lot of time thinking about policy.

John Bailey: I do, yeah. A little bit. A little bit of policy. So one is that Congress is going to move very slow. We thankfully though, in this day and age of such polarization in so many of our politics, there are two remarkable bipartisan roadmaps. One from the Senate, Senator Young and Senator Schumer introduced. And then there was a House report that got reintroduced right before break that is also bipartisan, remarkably good. It’s 218 pages and they have a lot, I take great comfort in the fact that there’s a bipartisan, durable consensus. It’ll take time to enact that. That’s okay. It’ll take time. At least we have a little bit of a pathway on that. The thing I think for most of your listeners to really pay attention to is what’s happening at the state level. And there, I mean, just last year we saw close to 400 something bills that were introduced at the state level. Everything from dealing with deep fakes to copyright issues to regulating the models themselves. The most famous one was in California. And those don’t on the surface look like they have anything to do with education, but they do. If that California bill had passed, that limits in many respects the types of models that would be available for teachers and for students. There’s another bill, similarly in Texas right now that’s being debated. And so I think we need to pay more attention to what’s going on at the state level because that is going to either restrict or enable access to a bunch of these different types of tools in the models. I think, Diane, you had mentioned too in one of the previous questions, like most people haven’t used ChatGPT, and I think that’s exactly right. But I think what’s going to start happening is ChatGPT and Google Gemini are going to come to where people live already. And you’re seeing that with ChatGPT being integrated into Apple’s iPhone, that, you know, I think for the vast majority of people in the country, their first experience of ChatGPT is going to be through their iPhone. And I think for a whole other set, especially teachers, their first experience is going to be using one of the AI tools on Google. And that’s okay. But again, what’s going to either restrict or expand access to those different types of tools are going to be these laws that are either restricting or adding more scrutiny to the models themselves. And what I will say there is, I don’t think anyone’s cracked the code on how to best regulate this. Whatever policymakers think they have the models improve or they’ve done something that they didn’t think was possible. And for the longest time, policymakers are like, we have to restrict these powerful models and it’s based on computing with some astronomical number. And then on December 24, China announces something called Deep Seek that is pretty much as good as ChatGPT4 and Llama3. And they did it with far less computing power. And so that would slip in underneath as like an exception. And I think policymakers are really wrestling with the best way of thinking about this and restricting it. So anyway, I would do more of that. You’re going to see a lot of other attention to AI literacy. I tend to be. I think these literacy efforts are great, but I have lived through, we need tech literacy, we need media literacy for everyone. It has felt like it. This is by no means to disrespect folks that are approaching this that like every new technology gets attached to literacy component to it. It is not really clear we got much from tech literacy back in the 2000s or some of the other things. And so maybe there’s a way to make sure that we get right what we got wrong before. But I don’t think that’s going to be the quite the silver bullet that we need it to be.

Diane Tavenner: I think that’s right. This has been really such a good way to start. Michael, do you have anything else you want to.

Reading, Listening, or Watching

Michael Horn: No, let’s. Thanks, John. This has been a really tremendous overview of a number of currents that I know both of us have been making notes on the side as you’ve been talking and we’re going to want to dig in more. Maybe let’s pivot away from the topic that we’ve been delving in as we wrap up here and just, John, what have you been reading, listening to, watching outside of the AI education conversation? Hopefully AI is not dominating every single thing. Although I won’t be surprised if you give us some movie or fiction or something like that with AI coursed in its veins. So what’s on your list?

John Bailey: Oh my gosh, what is? Unfortunately, it is like, it’s not unfortunate. It’s just I have. I found myself waking up at like 5am like 2 years ago just thinking about this. So like all of a sudden you’re reading books on, you know, intelligence and human expertise and human psychology because you’re trying to understand like intelligence and what is, what makes something intelligent and that. So anyway, that’s nerdy stuff. The new Henry Kissinger book with Craig Mundy, the Genesis book has also been good. I’ve been reading David Brooks’s book How to Get to Know Someone, which I sort of have missed the first time it had come out. But I think also it has an AI play too because that’s trying to get to know the essence of someone and the humanity of someone. And so it’s been great kind of reading through that in light of kind of everything that’s happening kind of around then what am I watching? I don’t know. Some great series on Netflix,  the Lioness. Yeah, it’s good. Oh, and all the Landman too which has also been quite good. Coming out of Yellowstone.

Diane Tavenner: Cool.

John Bailey: I don’t know.

Michael Horn: That’s good. I’m impressed with your range. Diane. What’s on your list?

Diane Tavenner: Well, my new exciting project for 2025 is we are planning a trip to Greece. And as Michael knows, when we sort of plan these trips, one of the big parts of it is spending like six months reading and learning and exploring before we go. And so I actually had a conversation with ChatGPT like you have advised John. When I flipped to just talking to it like a person changed everything to structure a reading and listening list and like all the things I’m going to do. So I have started in on that list that we co constructed and built together, which is pretty awesome. With the Greeks by Roderick Beaton. And this is on the nonfiction side. I have fiction too, but this one rose to the top because I really asked Chat to say I, I need you to find history that’s like engaging and that’s going to keep my attention and you know, give me all the, the way that I want history, the sort of the big swaths and so, so far so good.

Michael Horn: Very cool. Very cool.

John Bailey: One other thing, this summer when I did a vacation, I actually created a GPT with all, the travel itinerary, the PDF and everything else into it. And then it was awesome because I could just ask it questions, but it would give me, it would also speak phrases if I needed it to.

Michael Horn: Oh that’s next level, that’s very cool.

John Bailey: It was kind of, it was just kind of a fun little, little thing. But I’ll share the prompt with you later. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Horn: Because we used it for itinerary planning for, for all the different interests in our group, but did not jump to that level. John, that’s, that’s a good one. Mine has just been a book, so I feel boring compared to you both. I polished off Israel: A Guide to the Most Misunderstood Country on Earth by Noa Tishby, which has remained in my mind quite heavily. And so I highly recommend it. I thought it was quite good and quite humorous and quite engaging the way she wrote about it. So I enjoyed it. And that’s what I’ll, I’ll recommend for folks, and I think we’ll wrap there. But John, huge thanks for joining us again, kicking this off with a lot to chew on for all you listening right in with your questions, thoughts, things that are on your mind coming out of this conversation. We’ll look forward to the next one on Class Disrupted.

Jessica Heavner describes it as the hardest decision she鈥檚 ever had to make.

Heavner, of Federal Way, was working in accounting at the local school district, and when it came time for her annual cost of living raise two years ago, she realized the pay bump would put her over the state鈥檚 income limit for subsidized child care.

She would be making too much to get help from the state for care for her three children but too little to pay for care on her own, given the high costs.

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Heavner, a single parent, opted to find a lower-paying job with fewer hours in order to keep the subsidy 鈥� even though her previous job had better pay and benefits.

鈥淚 feel like I鈥檓 trapped in poverty,鈥� Heavner said.

She鈥檚 not alone in her predicament. from Child Care Aware of Washington found that a lack of child care in the state costs families and employers billions of dollars annually. Employee turnover and absenteeism and lost family income associated with child care cost about $6.9 billion last year, or around $870 per resident.

The report analyzes survey data from Zogby Analytics, which sampled 606 parents in Washington, and applies the findings to the state鈥檚 1.5 million parents with children 12 years or younger.

Nearly 40% of parents surveyed reported quitting work or getting fired since their children were born. About 62% reported missing at least one day of work in the last three months, and one in 10 had been out of work for at least a year since their children were born.

The cost of care, disruptions in availability and a lack of care options are all problems.

Parents who cannot secure care may not be able to find employment or take part in job skills training. Those who are employed can face reduced hours or missed promotion opportunities.

This lost productivity translated to a $1.5 billion dent last year in federal, state and local tax collections, according to the report. It also reduces Washington鈥檚 economic output by an estimated $6 billion each year, the report said.

Last year, the report said, employers lost $1.5 billion due to employee turnover because of child care and another $2.6 billion because of employees missing work due to child care issues. Meanwhile, families lost $2.9 billion in income because of child-care-related time off.

鈥淭his really puts into stark numbers that this is not just a problem for a handful of families, and not just a problem that child care providers need to face and deal with,鈥� said Genevieve Stokes, director of government relations at Child Care Aware of Washington. 鈥淭his is something that鈥檚 hurting the overall economy.鈥�

The problem is not going to go away unless there is more state spending on child care, Stokes said. Recent investments in this area through the capital gains tax and the Fair Start for Kids Act have been helpful, but she added Washington needs to do more to make sure the families and providers are not just 鈥渢reading water.鈥�

As part of the Fair Start for Kids Act that passed three years ago, the Legislature is supposed to increase eligibility for the state鈥檚 child care subsidy program for those who make 70% of the state鈥檚 median household income starting next year. Subsidies are currently available for those who make 60% of the state median income. for a household of two is $6,892. For a household of three, it鈥檚 $8,514, and for a household of four, it鈥檚 $10,136.

Stokes said she hopes the state honors that commitment next year as doing so could help many families who can鈥檛 quite afford to pay for care on their own.

Advocates, providers and families are also pushing for a statewide cap on what all families in Washington would pay for child care, likely set at 7% of their income. That change, however, would be expensive for the state, and as lawmakers are looking at this upcoming legislative session, it likely won鈥檛 become a reality anytime soon.

After struggling to find a child care that she felt comfortable with, Heavner said she finally found someone who she trusts to care for her kids and who understands her financial situation. In order to continue affording this care, Heavner said she will likely have to stay in her current job and work minimal hours until her kids are older.

But she said she鈥檚 still scared of accidentally making too much money one year and losing her subsidy. She said a statewide cap on child care costs would be a blessing.

鈥淚t would make me not worry about making so much money,鈥� Heavner said. 鈥淚t鈥檇 make me not worry about improving my life while having young children.鈥�

is part of States Newsroom, a nonprofit news network supported by grants and a coalition of donors as a 501c(3) public charity. Washington State Standard maintains editorial independence. Contact Editor Bill Lucia for questions: info@washingtonstatestandard.com. Follow Washington State Standard on and .

This summer, Lodi, California, high schoolers will again head to local wineries to learn the business through a combination of hands-on internships and college classes. The first-of-its-kind initiative is the result of a growing partnership among the district, Delta College, the Lodi Winegrape Commission and the nonprofit San Joaquin A+.聽

蜜桃影视 recently partnered with the Progressive Policy Institute for an inside look at the “Growing Futures” Initiative and how it aims to promote a more inclusive agriculture industry. 

In the replay below, you鈥檒l hear from experts Stuart Spencer, Executive Director of the Lodi Winegrape Commission, Kai Kung, CEO of San Joaquin A+, Kathy Stonum, Winemaker at Stonum Vineyards and Francesca Stonum, Operations Manager at Stonum Vineyards.

Some of our recent coverage of trends in career preparation:

• How a California Wine Region Is 鈥楪rowing Futures鈥� By Turning Vineyards Into State-of-the-Art Classrooms

• Why Wait to Graduate? Georgia Apprentices Start Training as Sophomores

• How Rhode Island Is Tapping Career & Technical Ed to Help Every Student Succeed

• LISTEN 鈥� Beyond 鈥楥ollege or Bust鈥�: Apprenticeship as a Path to Opportunity

• Who You Know: Social Capital is Key for First-Gen Students鈥� Career Success

The Class of 2024 had a college experience like no other, starting its first year during peak pandemic and graduating amid protests of the war in Gaza. Many of its graduates will be joining a working world that holds their future in its hands and that was transformed by technological advancements and changing attitudes about work while they were in school. What can they expect from the world of work today?

Apprenticeships are booming as high schools and private industry recognize the need for training students for roles in the workforce of the future and for offering career pathways that don’t necessarily rely on a bachelor’s degree.

蜜桃影视 recently partnered with the Progressive Policy Institute on a new installment of the “New Skills for a New Economy” webinar series, which focused on solutions needed to ensure the U.S. education and workforce systems adapt to meet current workforce needs.

In the replay below, you鈥檒l hear from experts, you鈥檒l hear from experts Vanessa Bennett of Jobs for the Future; Lateefah Durant of CityWorks D.C.; Jess Kostelnik, senior policy adviser to Colorado Gov. Jared Polis; and Seth Lentz, executive director of the Workforce Development Board of South Central Wisconsin. Watch the full conversation:

Some of our recent coverage of trends in career preparation:

• Indianapolis High School Carves Time Away from Class for Internships for All
  
• Why Wait to Graduate? Georgia Apprentices Start Training as Sophomores
  
• How Rhode Island Is Tapping Career & Technical Ed to Help Every Student Succeed
  
• LISTEN 鈥� Beyond 鈥楥ollege or Bust鈥�: Apprenticeship as a Path to Opportunity
  
• Who You Know: Social Capital is Key for First-Gen Students鈥� Career Success

One of the unique demands of the workforce of the future will be in industries dealing with the impact of climate change. This imperative is squarely on the radar of leaders and educators in Colorado, who are now championing state policies that support youth career development in 鈥済reen鈥� occupations.

蜜桃影视 recently partnered with the Progressive Policy Institute on a new installment of the 鈥淔uture of High Schools鈥� webinar series, which highlighted the Climatarium initiative of nonprofit group Lyra, which brings together education, industry, and policy partners to build climate-related college and career pathways for Colorado students.

In the replay below, you鈥檒l hear from experts Mary Seawell, CEO and Founder of Lyra, Colorado State Senator Chris Hansen, and Dr. Karen Cheser, Superintendent of Durango School District. Watch the full conversation:

Recent coverage of career pathways and climate education from 蜜桃影视:

• Creating a Climate-Literate Workforce in Colorado, Starting in Middle School

• Howard: Universal climate education can teach students how to preserve the planet today and train them for the green jobs of tomorrow

• 鈥淭his Is the Existential Crisis鈥�: A Push for Climate Change Education

• 6 Tips for Spotting a High School That Best Prepares Teens for Their Futures

Michael and Diane discuss why America鈥檚 approach to math class isn鈥檛 adding up. They analyze the outcomes produced under the status quo, consider the current system鈥檚 alignment with workforce needs, and propose a personalized approach to teaching each student the math that is meaningful for their path. 

Listen to the episode below. A full transcript follows.

Michael Horn: Hey, Diane, how are you?

Diane Tavenner: Well, I’m well, and I’m going to start with urgent priorities today. Do you have any recipes that use a lot of lemons?

Michael Horn: Lemons, OK.

Diane Tavenner: And it’s not because we’re going to make lemonade out of lemons today. It’s literally after years of drought, with all the rain we’ve had, my lemon tree has gone insane, and I have now made curd and cakes and ice cream and ice cubes of juice. And I have run out of recipes and I still have hundreds of lemons.

Michael Horn: Well, it sounds like you’re in California. It sounds like you’ve had rain. It sounds like I remember why I miss California. And I will tell you, the only other two I will add to your list is preserved lemons for salads. And then, of course, there’s an alcohol that you could make as well. But we won’t go there today. Instead, we could think about all the ratios and all that stuff that goes into making it just right, because I know you’ve been wanting to talk about math and some of the things that you’ve been learning about how our school system thinks or perhaps doesn’t think about math in relation to work. So I’d love you to start to unpack that.

Status quo K-12 math pathways 

Diane Tavenner: Well, great, because it’s much better that I talk about this with you than turn to the drink because math can make me feel like I want to do that sometimes. So I appreciate your willingness to have this conversation. And what is prompting it for me is, you know, I have thought about math for many years from sort of a K-12 educator perspective, but now I’m coming at it from this new direction where we’re really thinking about careers and post secondary and what’s getting me going on this topic is my observation of how important math is in careers and how that is really at odds with how people in K-12, I think, think about it. And so let me just lay something out and see if it makes sense to you, which is my experience in K -12 is there’s a mindset there and it’s a mindset among students and parents and teachers and counselors and kind of everyone who is in the system. We really focus on math almost exclusively in how it relates to college and specifically, like, how do I do what I need to do in math because it’s a key to college admissions, essentially? And so the big thinking that ends up happening, especially in high schools, is if I can get all the way to calculus, it gives me a better chance of getting accepted to college. And an elite college at that, maybe into the major that I want. Taking the most challenging鈥f I can’t get to college, taking the most challenging courses that I can in high school relative to what’s offered, helps me get into college. Getting good enough grades in math helps in my GPA to get into college. Previously and maybe a little bit again now emerging, taking the SAT and the ACT and getting the best score I can helps me get into college. The point being, as you hear, it’s all about getting into college. And as I think about my time in K-12, we almost were never talking about the value of the learning of the math. It was always this entry into college.

Michael Horn: Yeah, it certainly matches up with my experience as well. Diane, and I know it’s playing out there in California. Let’s go there in a moment. But I’ll just add, Jeff Selingo has made the point to me recently that all of what you just said is absolutely true. And it’s a little bizarre that colleges care this much about math because most students, when they get to college, are going to take at most one math class. Now, if you’re going to MIT or Caltech, maybe that’s different. But for most of us, we get to college, you do your math requirement if you have one, maybe you had gen ed math, so you have to pass a test or something like that, and then most students are sort of done with it, Diane, so it’s sort of bizarre how much the college and K-12 system cares about it as an entry point into admission as opposed to anything you’re going to do with that track. But let’s unpack what’s going on in California.

California鈥檚 new math framework 

Diane Tavenner: Yeah, this is the other piece that just has me deeply into math right now, which is I feel like California is always having a math war, but there is a renewed math war at the, you know, peaking right now. Over the last multiple years, about four years, California has been trying to, as a state, adopt a new math framework. And this framework has been very controversial. And know was first presented and everyone’s outraged. And so they went back and they edited and revised. That’s been going on for four years. Well, it just got approved at the state level. Still people are very upset about it. But I’ve been reading the coverage about it and the arguments around it, and maybe I’ll just give you a couple of quotes here that I think go directly to what we’re talking about. This is from the LA Times, and the quote is 鈥淎nother concern of people who don’t like this math framework is that many top colleges still place an emphasis on whether applicants get to calculus and how well they do in that course.鈥� And so this is just a well-known, well-communicated expectation from colleges and universities. And what I would also say is from the most selective and elite, because you and I both know there’s a small number of those. There’s a huge number of colleges that are non selective – you don’t need to take calculus to get into those colleges. So it’s like this small number really driving the agenda for most people. That’s on the one side, you’ve got these people angry that because we’re driving every kid to college, we’re not actually focused on equity and going at a slower pace, more kids able to kind of learn together and things like that. And then the flip side of that is parents who are really frustrated and worried that their kids opportunities will be limited and held back. And this actually happened in California and in San Francisco, where they decided they were not going to teach algebra in 8th grade because it wasn’t fair and equitable. And so we’re literally saying we’re withholding learning from some kids in the name of鈥nd on both sides, I’m like, oh, my gosh, Michael, this is not third way thinking.

Michael Horn: No, not at all. I mean, it goes to the heart of, I think what frustrates both of us around these conversations is that clearly the answer to equity is not the opposite of excellence. And clearly, having a system that drives off the expectation of calculus for all doesn’t make a heck of a lot of sense. And I know you’ve been investigating about how does math even manifest itself into these careers. So I’d love you to tell what you’ve been finding in that, because that may be the most interesting piece of the puzzle.

The role of math in the modern workforce

Diane Tavenner: Yeah. And I think that my headline here is, and we’re using datasets that lots of people use, so sort of the federal government data sets around labor and statistics and jobs and careers and things like that. And so as we just dig into this and really think about the usefulness of it, my headline is鈥ell, let me just share with you what we’re discovering. So there are approximately 923 careers in the US. And I say approximately because we do, in these data sets, believe there aren’t careers that are represented in there. There are some, I will also tell you, that I had no idea were careers. So it’s fascinating. It’s a little bit of a game. Like, I challenge anyone to write down the number of careers you can think of 923 is quite a lot.

Michael Horn: There’s no way I would get there.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah, 235 of those 923 literally have math as an important skill for doing that job. And these are jobs where you’re going to be doing math kind of on a daily basis, doing calculations, using math in your actual work. And so just some examples of these types of careers. You’re an actuary, you’re a statistician, those probably seem pretty obvious. You’re a sales manager, you’re a personal finance advisor. And so I feel like those seem like, oh, but there are 235 careers that are using math kind of regularly. There’s 573 careers, inclusive of those 235, that also have math as like, important knowledge you need for doing your job. And so you might not be doing calculations and stats every day, but when you’re a pharmacist and an economist, and a wind energy engineer, and a stonemason, and a logistics engineer, and an insurance underwriter and a farmer, you need a grasp of and knowledge of math in order to effectively do your work and to be engaged in your career. The other thing I would just say about this is all these careers, these 573 careers, when I look at them and stack rank them and money isn’t everything, but making a family sustaining wage is really important and a thing we aim for. These careers are highly represented in the group that makes, on average, $75,000 or more a year. So in the sort of top end, so not only math an important part of the majority of careers that are in the country in some way, shape or form, but definitely overrepresented in those where you’re going to make more money. And here’s maybe the punchline. Very few of these careers require any use of calculus, or quite frankly, advanced algebra even. And so most of them require just a strong grasp of real world applications of math, like statistics and fluency and basic math concepts, and confidence that you actually understand these things and practical application of them. And so I just would say this is so contrary to my experience in K-12, where almost no one is focused on math for career opportunities and success. I don’t think I ever had that conversation in K-12.

Michael Horn: No, that makes sense. It’s interesting. It brings to mind when I wrote from Reopen to Reinvent, I joined the argument that many more people should be learning data science and statistics, rather than the algebra II into calculus path. And one of the arguments was Anthony Carnivale, who was then the director of the Center on Education and Workforce at Georgetown, had this stat in an article where just 11% of US jobs involved work that required understanding algebra II concepts, and only 6% regularly used those concepts. So a bare minority. But then you’re pointing out that doesn’t mean the careers don’t have math at their heart. It’s just not math on this calculus track, if you will, that is a relic, we should add. It’s a relic of the sort of distinguishing between vocational education and the college track education, which in our mind is a boundary that should stop existing also. That’s an outgrowth of all this. So where do we go, I guess, from here? If that’s the reality, where do we go?

Results of the status quo

Diane Tavenner: Yeah, and I definitely want to get into some solutions. We never, of course, want to leave here without generating some path forward. But it might be worth staying for one more minute on what is underlying this problem because it’s not just like K-12 people running around and purposely sabotaging math. I don’t think that that’s the objective, but I do think that our current design of our K-12 system, kind of, as we know, results in very few, let’s call them mathematically literate, let alone fluent students. And I was thinking about this because we talk about reading and we talk about literacy quite a bit. And as we both know, there’s a renewed focus on the science of teaching reading and literacy. And I do think as a whole society feels very convicted that everyone should be able to read and everyone should be literate. I’m not sure that that’s how we think about math literacy, quite frankly. And so I think one of the things that you’re just pointing to that’s embedded in the system, the K-12 system we have, is if you have calculation as this destination, and you just said it, there’s one pathway, then there’s like this sequence of courses that you take, and really it’s like every single person’s on that same pathway, and it’s just how far you’re going to get on it in what period of time. Will you make it to algebra? Will you make it to geometry? Will you make it to algebra II? To trigonometry? It’s almost like this game of like, well, where is everyone going to fall out, if you will. And this is all driven by this drive to four-year college for all, which is the thing we’ve been talking about a lot. And so I just think it’s worth us noting that only about 8% of high school students actually take calculus. So that is the dropout rate, if you will, of math along this pathway. So I think one thing in the design we need to think about is this pathway concept. I think the second challenge is K-12 is not really connected to employers and to employment. Again, college for all, that’s our focus. That’s what we thought we needed to be doing. And when you’re disconnected from the actual use and what people are doing, I think it’s challenging. And then, Michael, there are very few teachers capable of teaching math. I think this is something we’re really going to have to grapple with when I’m going through these 923 careers. You need to know a lot of math in order to teach math. And as we just showed, there’s a lot of other careers where if you know math, you’re going to be very competitive in those careers. They’re very lucrative careers. They don’t often require as much post-high school education and credentialing. And so why would you choose to be a math teacher? And I will just say math teachers for a long time have been among the very hardest to hire. There are tons of math positions that go literally unfilled every year. And I just see this problem growing and not shrinking. And so I just think those are some of the elements of the system that we need to think about solutions for if we’re going to do something different here.

Defining math literacy in the age of AI

Michael Horn: No, that all makes sense. I’m just curious, and you may not have a take on this if I’m putting you on the spot, but how would you think about defining what is math literacy, as opposed to the completion of algebra two, trigonometry, precalc, calc, if that’s the old sequence. How would you define that? Or how would you think about creating a definition? Maybe that’s the fairer question. And then the second part of it is, I’m just sort of curious if you have a thought of does AI change any of that? We know a lot of these large language models don’t do math particularly well today, but we also assume that that will change over time. So I’m just sort of curious how that enters into your thinking or no?

Diane Tavenner: Yeah, this is such a good question. Well, the first one I love, because you sort of are inviting me to think about a rubric and learning objectives, which, as you know, in my nerdy world is鈥�

Michael Horn: You geek out there.

Diane Tavenner: So it’s really fun. So the first logical place I think people go is, well, rather than this traditional sequence that most of us are familiar with, sort of this pre-algebra, algebra, geometry, algebra II, et cetera, you go with an integrated mass sequence. And California this is one thing that the state has tried to do in this framework, is promote a more integrated approach, which conceptually I think is maybe in the right direction, in that it does seem to be a little bit more grounded in real world applications. Like, very rarely are you getting these pure sort of subjects when you’re using math in the real world. I think it breaks down in a couple of ways. One, I don’t know that it is truly connected to real world application. And two, I think in the teaching of it, it’s not how math teachers are trained, unless your entire system is doing this when kids are having to move, shift back and forth like it’s just a mess. And it’s not recognized by college, which is driving things. So I’m not sure integrated math gets us where we need to be. So how would I think about what it would mean to be math literate and math fluent? One way we could start would just be to go look at what is the math that is being done in these careers and quite frankly, in real life. I mean, I don’t know about you, but being a human, you have to manage your budget and your finances. What are the real world uses of math, concepts of math 鈥�

Michael Horn: 鈥� And then pull back and define around that.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah.

Michael Horn: Interesting. OK.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah.

Michael Horn: And I guess it’d be super interesting if AI starts to, in fact, change some of these professions. As you know, I’m seeing white papers come across my computer screen saying we don’t need to worry about computation anymore. And I suspect there’s a point where that’s true, and there’s a point where maybe it’s not true that actually still learning these fundamental processes in the same way we do work about on phonemes and things like that are still building blocks to understanding how math is in fact functioning, even if the manipulation of equations or things like that become less important.

Diane Tavenner: I had a really interesting conversation the other night with Irhum, who was on our second episode of this season related to AI about this very topic. And there’s a big generational gap between us. And so he’s always a little surprised about what I did in the old days. So he was saying to me, he’s like, I am one of the few people where I literally use calculus in my job. So he is truly using calculus. So he’s very mathematically literate and fluent, obviously at high levels. But he was advocating to me that what most people should be focusing on is statistics and data, significantly more to your exact point, and what you’ve been writing about, and certainly what I agree with and he was so surprised to hear my experience of doing research methods in college and statistics in college, and he’s like, wait a minute, you used a calculator, and he’s like, why would you do that?

Michael Horn: Why wouldn’t you just type into Excel?

Diane Tavenner: Literally. The actual computational piece is just far less important to him. It’s the conceptual understanding and the application and usage, because in his mind, we have all of these tools that do that. He’s like, technology does that so much better than humans. The likelihood that a human is going to make a mistake is very, very high. It’s inefficient for us to be doing that type of mathematical work. And in some ways, it’s what becomes the turn off to a lot of people, I would argue.

Michael Horn: Sure, 100%. I mean, when it becomes so about essentially formula manipulation, as opposed to understanding the conceptual underlying what you’re, in fact doing right, it turns a lot of folks off. So that all makes sense. If we’ve identified the problem, we started to define how we would think about literacy and fluency in this world. We can admit we haven’t nailed that yet, but sort of putting some questions out there and suggesting maybe some of this might evolve. Can we go to solutions now? 

Innovative solutions to our math challenges 

Diane Tavenner: I guess my first suggestion would know, I don’t know many people in America who are super excited about the presidential campaign this year. So maybe we take that one out and we sub in a different campaign. And here would be my vote for the campaign of America is that we just need to rethink the importance of being math literate in America and why it matters to each of us. Personally, I used to work with this incredible math teacher, Megan Taylor, and she always tried to drive the point home. She’s like, no one would go to a party and casually say, like, 鈥淵eah, I’m illiterate. I can’t read,鈥� and be fine with that. And yet, all the time, people, I’m terrible at math. I can’t do math. And so this notion that we have gotten comfortable as a nation, that most people are terrible and can’t do math, we need a campaign in the other direction of the importance of math and the importance of us collectively being literate at it. A changing expectation. I would want you and I, as starters, to be as passionate about young people coming out math literate as we are them coming out reading, writing literate. 

Michael Horn: Love it. If in future episodes, we cover what presidential candidates should be saying about elections, we’ll have to strike this from the record. But I agree, this would be a much more inspiring use of the next year of our national dialogue I suspect.

Diane Tavenner: Indeed, that second one we’ve already touched on a little bit and we started to brainstorm there. But we need the math that’s being taught. We just need to shift the focus, I think, in K-12 away from how is this a screener for a small number of kids into elite colleges? And how’s that driving the whole system into what is the math that is meaningful and useful and used in the real world and really organizing our instruction around that? And again, we’ve talked about integrated math should be able to do this. Maybe it’s the starting place, but it’s falling short right now. It needs some work.

Michael Horn: Yeah. And on this one, and this may bleed into where I think you’ll probably go next. But one of the thoughts that I’ve had is for those individuals like Irhum who like calculus, is going to be central to what they do, I want that pathway available, but I don’t want it to be the expectation that that’s the only option. And I don’t want it to be seen as better or worse than, I just want it to be a choice that I’ve made because it speaks to me, because it aligns with things that I have learned about my passions and purpose and things of that nature. And it’s a considered choice as opposed to something either done to me or an option that I don’t even have. 

Diane Tavenner:Completely, and I feel like we’re going back to our roots of what we actually originally met over, which is personalization. And I think that this is probably going to be the most controversial. And I want to be really clear about what I’m saying and not saying here and the whole totality of it, but we need to totally rethink how we’re teaching math from a needs outcome, but a practical perspective as well. We have technology, and AI is only going to help this. We have personalized math instruction options that are pretty darn good right now in the world that really, I would argue, can do a better job of personalizing instruction and creating a personal pathway for every single student to learn math from very young all the way through high school than what almost every math classroom in America can do. And then you add in the fact that you have to have this math classroom be as good as the next year and the next year and the next year, which is just unrealistic at this point. We need to personalize math instruction. We need to use technology to do it and that means it needs to look completely different than the way it does in school. And there are many implications to that, and we can take a minute to unpack those. But I’m guessing that you’re aligned with me here on this.

Michael Horn: 100%. And I think it’s interesting for people who hear this, they’ll say, well, tracking does that. And in my mind it doesn’t. Because while the opposite of tracking, putting everyone in the same thing at the same pace is not an answer, and I would totally argue against that. Tracking is a very blunt instrument on this. As we know, math is cumulative, right? So there’s a certain number of power skills that translate, that are critical for learning what comes next and that branch you in different directions and so forth. And you just think about that individual and I’ll just tell you a story. This happened a few years ago in Lexington, where I live, where I was talking with the father over coffee, and he was just anguishing because his then 8th grade daughter was trying to decide would she take honors geometry or regular track geometry, something like that, in the 9th grade. And I was just thinking what a terrible choice for a young person. She should just be taking math and she could move as fast or as slow as she needed to do along the skills. And then if because of the way our education system works, we needed to give it a name, afterwards we could, at the end of the year, look at what she had mastered and give it a name. But why were we forcing her to make this artificial choice that was either going to hold her back or create stress she couldn’t handle and all these other things when the objective should just be learning the math. And to your point, we can do this in a personalized way. And then for people who I think may be hearing us and saying, well, that sounds really individualistic, well, great, because then I get to work in projects where I apply the math. I’ve worked in a group with people, but I’m not like being held back on the conceptual understanding because my neighbor is ahead or behind me at any given point in time. 

Diane Tavenner: We’re totally aligned, Michael, and I would just add even a little bit more like, let’s describe what this could literally look like in a school so people could imagine it. Imagine a young person going to school starting from kindergarten all the way through college, and they are literally in a math software technology program, probably more than one over the time. Maybe it’s a small cluster of them, but they are in that program continuously for their entire K-12 education. It’s adaptive. It’s growing with them. There is no limit on the amount of math they can learn.

Michael Horn: There’s no five-week review at the beginning of fall to see where you may have or may not have remembered.

Diane Tavenner: You’re just making progress. You’re never sort of waiting on a class or like behind on a class. They’re doing that. Imagine whatever, an hour or two or three a day, whatever it needs, they’re doing that work in the school building. What can the adults be doing so they’re not isolated? A couple of things. One, there’s a whole sort of coaching and mentoring component to supporting young people to stay in there and hang in there and reflect on what they’re doing and making sure that they’re growing and monitoring their progress and diagnosing what’s happening, if they’re falling off and celebrating when they’re advancing. So there’s that role and component, which is important, but it doesn’t have to be done by a math teacher and a math expert. And the second piece is, and you said it, if schools are teaching the way they should be, which is they have projects that kids are engaged in where they are really heterogeneously grouped and they are real world, and they’re applying these concepts, you can have exactly what the California math framework is envisioning and what San Francisco wanted, which is all these kids working together using math concepts, regardless of where they are in their development and applying the math, being in a social setting, all of those things.

The obstacles to change 

Diane Tavenner: So that’s the type of thing we’re talking about. But what that requires is changes in policy, changes in the role of the teacher, changes in course offerings, changes in how the transcript reflects what kids are learning, which feels a little daunting.

Michael Horn: Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of work on this, as you know, and I know that the traditional system, it’s like, I mean, Clay would always say this when he would describe this Michigan manufacturing corporation case study, and he’s like, there were metaphorical grooves in the floor that meant that the welding station only visited whatever station and would never go across the factory floor to see someone else over there. It was like they were just so well worn. And that’s sort of where our system keeps getting stuck as well, I think. And you make sort of a change to any one of these, right? We’re both pretty excited, I think, about the team teaching work that Arizona State is starting to roll across, the next education workforce stuff, but that’s going to bump into something else. Or as we’ve talked about in this podcast, before you change seat time requirements, the Carnegie work that we’ve had Tim on talking about, Tim Knowles talking about, yeah, but then finance, then how you do scheduling, how you’ve credentialed, like all these things ripple in very complicated ways, that it’s never just one simple answer.

Diane Tavenner: No, well, this is your expertise now, but as we know, the big existing incumbent system doesn’t really disrupt itself because something is always getting in the way. And so I do think we have to wonder, are there other ways to getting to this outcome because it’s so important. And I do think this is where the rise of ESAs or educational savings account gets interesting. And especially if you combine that with what I think is an emerging opportunity for alternative methods to validate skills and knowledge. And we had some of that conversation with Tim when he was here in Carnegie and what they’re doing with. But like, especially in the world of math where we have plenty of valid assessments that are valid and no one’s鈥�

Michael Horn: Going to question.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah. And so what happens if the campaign works and families are like, oh, I want a good career and job and I need to know math and the school is not giving me a pathway to understand and learn the math I need. So I’m going to unbundle and I’m going to use some resources to go get that somewhere else.

Michael Horn: Yeah. So before we wrap up here and move on to what we’re reading, this just throws me back to season one where we had this conversation of the haves and the have nots in the schools and in a place like Palo Alto where all the kids had already taken the math class before they showed up for math, you know in summer school or in their Russian school of math after school or whatever it was. And my reflection is, well, okay, I mean, that’s not how I would choose to spend my kids time or my money, but let’s say they did it. Could you just say, like, yeah, you’ve passed an assessment that shows you have mastered these math concepts. Great. Why waste your time doing the exact same thing now? Unless you didn’t really master it, in which case it’s more about cementing it and we should be able to. These assessments can measure that as well. And I think you’re right, the ESAs鈥t’s funny how we both have come sort of around to this view that I think it creates a really important set of alternatives that aren’t just schools to rethinking a lot of these structures. And you mentioned transcripts and grading and things like that that get very complicated. But when you get out of that world and you find other ways to validate and other ways to offer, it changes a lot of the questions that you ask in some pretty fresh, exciting ways that I think become more intuitive when they’re not asked from the perspective of a parent or student in the system itself.

Diane Tavenner: A lot there.

What we鈥檙e reading and watching  

Michael Horn: That was a lot. All right, so let’s get out of there. And besides thinking about math and researching all the math that will be used in careers, are you reading, listening to, watching anything outside of math? Because I don’t know if you know this, we actually have someone on social media now who has created a Google Doc, apparently with all the recommendations we’ve given over the five seasons. No pressure, but anything good?

Diane Tavenner: Oh, my God. Tracking to make sure I’m not repeating. Well, I think I may have mentioned this, Michael, but Rhett is in his last semester at Minerva. He’s in London. So I’m going to head to visit him soon, and we’re actually going to go up to Scotland. And I’m super interested in Scotland because there’s so many interesting things there. It was one of the most literate countries at one point in time. Small, poor, yet highly literate, an enlightenment. They’re really amazing thinkers. So I’ve just been immersing myself in Scottish history and reading, and I’ve sort of moved over to the fiction part of it now. So one of their most famous authors is Ian Rankin, and he has this famous detective, and all the novels take place in Scotland. And so I’m actually reading his kind of memoir, which is super fascinating right now.

Michael Horn: Wow.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah. How about you?

Michael Horn: That’ll be an interesting trip. What about me? I was thinking about this beforehand. I have not finished a book in a while, but I’ve just been continuing to geek out on tennis, which I think I said last time on the two-minute tennis. And so I am now completely hooked on鈥ndy Roddick has a new podcast called Served. I’m completely hooked on that. And then there’s this new rules of tennis, sort of money ball tennis sort of thing called Fuzzy Yellow Balls. And I’ve been reading a video book, and as you know, I don’t鈥rony since we’re video recording this, but I don’t love watching videos generally to learn, I prefer to read, but I finally, like, I subscribed to it several months ago and then was like, oh, it’s videos, and put it aside. And then I’ve been obsessively going through this new singles rulebook. It helped me in my match the other day, and it’s been awesome, but I feel like I’m unlearning literally everything I thought was true about how you play tennis over the last few months, so it’s been really cool.

Diane Tavenner: You’re a great model for what we should probably be doing in education.

Michael Horn: There you go, disrupting everything. And with that, we’ll conclude and just say thank you for joining us on Class Disrupted. We’ll see you next time.

El Paso Community College has entered into a contract with the Federal Bureau of Prisons to teach incarcerated students the necessary welding skills to make them legitimate candidates for in-demand, good-paying jobs upon their release. 

The program should launch this spring.

The EPCC Board of Trustees approved the five-year, $520,000 agreement last month. To prepare, EPCC must hire a full-time instructor, while the leaders at the Federal Correctional Institution, La Tuna, need to upgrade its camp facilities in Anthony, Texas.

La Tuna is a low-security prison for incarcerated males located about 20 miles northwest of El Paso. According to its website, it has about 690 inmates and offers vocational training in welding, automotive and office technology. The prison鈥檚 satellite camp will house the inmates picked for the welding program.

This is the latest effort between the two entities to prepare people who are incarcerated to transition back into society. Blayne J. Primozich, associate vice president for Workforce & Continuing Education at EPCC, said it was part of the college鈥檚 mission to assist underserved populations.

鈥�(Incarcerated students) earn time off their sentences for every course they complete, but the idea is also to make them workforce ready,鈥� Primozich said. 鈥淭hat鈥檚 key to reducing recidivism.鈥�

According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, approximately 600,000 Americans are released from state and federal prisons annually, and they add to the almost who have been arrested or convicted for a crime. That connection to a criminal past can make it difficult to get a job, let alone one that pays well.

According to a 2022 report published by the Prison Policy Initiative, approximately 60% of people who were incarcerated in a federal prison do not have a job up to four years after their release. To put it in perspective, the U.S. had an unemployment rate of in 2020 during the pandemic. The current unemployment rate is 3.7%.

A Corp. analysis showed that incarcerated people who participate in education programs are 43% less likely than others to be incarcerated again, and the government saves $4 to $5 in reimprisonment costs for every dollar spent on prison education.

While the college and the prison have collaborated for more than 20 years, this is the college鈥檚 first big effort to teach at the prison since the pandemic. Olga L. Valerio, dean of EPCC鈥檚 Advanced Technology Center on the Valle Verde campus, said prison officials will select the participants for the certification program, which should last from six to eight months. Each cohort could have as many as 14 students.  

EPCC officials said that the college has collaborated with La Tuna on other similar training programs that teach interior and exterior vehicle renovations, and Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning. Valerio said participants with those skills have become successful workers and, in some cases, business owners, upon their release.

鈥淭his has opened doors for them,鈥� Valerio said.

Primozich said that the college鈥檚 goal is for the La Tuna students to earn their American Welding Society certifications in Shielded Metal Arc Welding and Gas Metal Arc Welding. The courses would include theory, safety training and hands-on experience with industrial welding equipment.

Once certified in those welding processes, those participants will be ready to work in maintenance and manufacturing shops, steel construction sites and oil field operations, according to the abstract presented to the trustees. The size of employers range from big companies to small businesses.

According to Salary.com, the average salary for an entry-level welder in El Paso County is $40,843 as of January, but salaries could range from about $36,300 to $46,800. Those who move out of the area could earn more.

The welding courses, which are free to the students, are funded in part through the government鈥檚 First Step Act. Congress passed the legislation in 2018 to promote rehabilitation services such as job training, lower recidivism, and to reduce sentence times.

An August 2023 brief in included an announcement from the Department of Justice that the recidivism rate of those people who used the First Step Act was lower than those who did not. The report stated that of the nearly 30,000 people who gained an early release because of the program, almost 90% had not been rearrested or reincarcerated. In contrast, a 2021 article in the stated that within three years, about 66% of formerly incarcerated people are rearrested, and more than 50% are reincarcerated.   

College and prison officials said that they will do what they can to help the certified welding students to find a job after they are released.

Louis Castillo, industry project manager with Workforce Solutions Borderplex or WSB, said having an up-to-date certification in an in-demand field helps, but people who were incarcerated also need to find a company that will give former felons a chance.

People who recently were released from prison often deal with barriers to employment. Among those Castillo listed were homelessness, substance abuse, mental health issues, the stigma of a criminal record, and a lack of reliable transportation.

鈥淲hen an employer is looking at two candidates, a lot of times those kinds of biases will have them choose the one who doesn鈥檛 have the record,鈥� Castillo said.

The WSB manager said that there are openings for skilled laborers such as welders. However, he said that jobs outside the region could pose a logistical problem for people who must stay in a certain area as a condition of their parole. While La Tuna prisoners come from throughout the country, most are from the southwest.

Sandra Qui帽onez, La Tuna鈥檚 supervisor of education, said the prison is in early discussions with EPCC and the University of Texas at El Paso to offer college courses inside the institution using Pell Grant funds. As of July 1, 2023, the U.S. government made Pell Grants available to qualified people who are incarcerated so they can pursue a college education.

Qui帽onez said that the effort will proceed after the institutions submit the required documentation to the U.S. Department of Education.

A UTEP official said the university is in talks to offer some courses at La Tuna, but there is nothing official to report yet. EPCC did not respond to a request to comment.

This first appeared on and is republished here under a Creative Commons license.

At the Data Quality Campaign, we know this to be true 鈥� because we鈥檝e asked. In surveys, 80% of , 94% of , 93% of and 98% of said they would feel more confident making decisions with better access to data.

In May, DQC released a that lays out how states can revolutionize how they deliver access to information that people need about education and workforce pathways 鈥� for individuals, the public and policymakers. This vision 鈥� of robust that help individuals make decisions and support policymakers in driving systemic improvements 鈥� is based on the collective work of more than 40 national research, policy and advocacy organizations, as well as state advocates, leaders and funders.

Six months later, this work is starting to happen across states and at the federal level. 

During the , Alabama, Montana and Rhode Island passed laws to codify cross-agency data governance involving early education, K-12, postsecondary and workforce. This is the single most important step states can take toward enabling robust data access, as establishing clear governance ensures that agencies come together for shared decisionmaking and that the efforts outlast changes in state priorities and leadership. Three states might not seem like a lot, they have nearly doubled the number that now have cross-agency data governance policies in place. Before this year, only California, Kentucky, Maryland and North Dakota were on that list. We look forward to seeing that number rise again in the coming years as other states consider these important changes. 

Four states and Washington, D.C., made strides this year by funding their state data systems, and three states passed privacy laws to mandate safeguards for student data use 鈥� two additional steps toward ensuring that each state has a that enables robust access to information. 

Leaders across the federal government are also working to untangle the red tape and supply the funding necessary for states to get this work done. Last year鈥檚 appropriations process not only led to a $5 million increasing in funding for the federal Statewide Longitudinal Data System Grant Program 鈥� which assists state education agencies working to improve their statewide data systems 鈥� but this year鈥檚 stated explicitly that the goal of the program is to help all states create 鈥渃omprehensive P-20W (early learning through workforce) systems.鈥� The Senate is also the reauthorization of the Education Sciences Reform Act, which allows the government to collect information and conduct research on the education system. While funding for the act has continued since it expired, reauthorization underscores the necessity of strong data and systems for evidence building and decisionmaking.

Meanwhile, the Department of Labor to explore revising its regulations and guidance for sharing unemployment insurance wage data 鈥� vital information for understanding and supporting how individuals move into and through the workforce. And the Office of Management and Budget released a proposal to revise the government’s Uniform Grants Guidance, clarifying that both indirect and direct funds can be used for a range of data and evidence-related purposes.

But the work can鈥檛 stop here. 

State leaders 鈥� including governors, legislators and education agency staff 鈥� must continue to prioritize access and take the leap to share data in ways that people can use to make decisions. In addition to codifying cross-agency data governance and funding their systems, state leaders must take the following to ensure that everyone has access to the data they need:

• Establish an independent entity to administer the state鈥檚 data system 鈥� because when everyone is in charge, no one is in charge;
• Map the state鈥檚 existing technology, tools, data, funding, staff, legal supports and other assets and policies so leaders can be strategic about where to begin and what investments they should make;
• Engage the public to understand how to prioritize people鈥檚 data access needs;
• Create a shared understanding among state leaders of how state and federal law are interpreted and implemented;
• Help people understand how to use and benefit from state data tools and resources while supporting schools, community colleges, agencies that administer workforce education and training programs, and others in building their own capacity to use data;
• Invest in the talent necessary to staff this work sustainably;
• Ensure that people鈥檚 data is kept private and secure. 

Federal leaders must states make changes by clarifying how state decisionmakers are permitted to use different types of funding and increasing available dollars for state data systems; expanding privacy technical assistance and support available to states; providing guidance on and support for linking and accessing data; and sharing information on how states can emulate best practices.

States have an opportunity to make big changes to their data systems so they meet the needs of the many users who require this essential information to make decisions. It takes courage and leadership 鈥� but it鈥檚 possible. And it鈥檚 time for leaders to build on the momentum already growing across the country to make robust access to education and workforce data a reality. Their communities deserve it.

The United States has an education problem鈥攍ow and declining test scores, disengaged students, and growing teacher shortages, among other challenges. In Indiana, fewer high school students are pursuing postsecondary education or completing a credential or degree. This decline in postsecondary enrollment and educational attainment is sharpest for Black and Hispanic/Latino students, especially males. 

We also have a skills gap problem鈥攏ot enough people with the skills to handle the jobs of the future鈥攁nd the pandemic has accelerated this misalignment in supply and demand. In Indianapolis alone, at last count, we needed 215,000 people with job-ready credentials to close our skills gap. 

Traditional approaches aren鈥檛 working. Communities like ours must become much more innovative if we wish to ensure a future of inclusive economic prosperity. 

A continuum of career-connected learning

EmployIndy, a quasi-governmental intermediary organization, is doing what we can. We work closely with businesses, K-12, postsecondary and higher education, city and state agencies, and philanthropic organizations to ensure all local residents earn a livable wage and that local employers have the skilled talent they need to grow. In order to make our vision a reality, we invest in what works: good jobs, talent connections, coaching and training, and career-connected learning. 

We leverage a continuum of career-connected learning to ensure Indy鈥檚 youth and young adults are positioned to meet the future needs of the local economy. This continuum includes a broad array of exploration, engagement, and experience opportunities. As part of this learning continuum, one of our most ambitious initiatives is a reinvented approach to apprenticeship, a job training model that dates back to the Middle Ages. Through the Modern Apprenticeship Program, which we operate with a sister intermediary, Ascend Indiana, we鈥檙e preparing high school students for the jobs of the future. By blurring the lines between education and work, we鈥檙e making learning more relevant for students. We鈥檙e giving businesses a fresh approach to a time-tested model. And we鈥檙e creating more pathways to prosperity for all students, with a particular focus on the underserved, underrepresented, and underprivileged in our community. By blurring the lines between education and work, we鈥檙e making learning more relevant for students. We鈥檙e giving businesses a fresh approach to a timetested model. And we鈥檙e creating more pathways to prosperity for all students. 

More than 40 participating local employers and 14 high schools have come together to co-develop talent, offering apprenticeships across seven industries with the highest student interest: 

鈥� Healthcare services 

鈥� Information technology

鈥� Business operations 

鈥� Advanced manufacturing 

鈥� Construction 

鈥� Education 

鈥� Financial services 

Specific jobs range from project coordinators and staff accountants to maintenance technicians and IT support. 

High school students earn while they learn. As juniors, they spend two days a week on the job, which increases to three days as seniors. One year after graduation, young adults have earned a high school diploma, college credits, and industry credentials. They have built a professional network. And they have a choice for their next step鈥攃ollege, postsecondary training, or work. What parent wouldn鈥檛 want that for their 18-year-old? 

We鈥檙e having an impact. We鈥檙e helping diversify our workforce: about 88% of current apprentices are students of color, 60% are female, and one-third come from low-income households, doing jobs such as IT and accounting that historically have been dominated by white men. We鈥檙e reducing employer turnover: 94% of Indiana employees say they would stay with their companies longer if they invested in learning. And we鈥檙e having a positive return on investment: every $1 invested in apprenticeship returns $1.47.

Scaling what works

Our primary challenge now is to expand what鈥檚 working. We鈥檝e incubated success. Now we must scale it. Doing so will require all parties to adjust how they do business in the 21st century.

Employers need to play a much bigger, more well-defined role in this new system. They must cocreate learning opportunities, advise on occupations and curriculum, become training companies for apprentices, and invest more time and treasure to ensure education and government partners are providing the most comprehensive education possible to young people. They need to engage their future workforce early, starting in middle school, and not wait until unprepared graduates fill out a job application. 

High schools must continue to become more flexible, offering students more choices and pathways. They must work with their community partners to ensure all students are receiving the career-coaching support needed to make important decisions about their future. Graduation day must be seen as the starting line, not the endpoint. 

Colleges and universities must become more adaptable, awarding credits for prior learning (including on the job) and working more closely with local employers on teaching applied skills. Clearly, there is a continued role for elite postsecondary programs, but we are equally committed to working with innovative community-focused institutions. 

Government agencies must continue to broaden their measures of accountability to track not just high school graduation rates, college-going rates, or completion data, but more longitudinal and actionable data that allow institutions to make informed and equitable decisions about the needs of their constituents. 

Young people themselves must step up and benefit from the growing opportunities to take charge of their own learning. Of course, they need to learn math, science, and reading. But just as important, they need a career plan. And they need to master durable skills such as problem solving, teamwork, and conflict resolution that will help them in school鈥揳nd in life. 

Apprenticeships are just one of the gateways we鈥檙e providing to young people to build skills and become future-ready. Working with multiple partners, we also support dropout prevention and recovery programs, administer career coaching and job training programs, and deliver a curriculum for young adults to learn durable skills in mindsets, self management, learning strategies, social skills, workplace skills, and launching a career. 

Thanks to the leadership of Indianapolis Mayor Joe Hogsett, we鈥檙e also able to award college scholarships, provide completion grants, and connect teens to summer jobs, among other efforts. The City of Indianapolis has dedicated millions of dollars annually over the last five years to Indy Achieves, which works to ensure that every Indianapolis resident can pursue and complete a postsecondary credential or degree program. We empower residents to pursue careers that put them on a pathway to the middle class by removing barriers and providing a debt-free pathway to a better future. Mayor Hogsett also launched Project Indy as a critical first step in helping young people explore job opportunities and gain valuable experience and skills toward a future career. We鈥檝e connected thousands of in-school and out-of-school youth in Marion County to summer jobs and work-based learning experiences. 

One of our most innovative programs, YES Indy, invites out-of-school youth to play basketball at reengagement centers (RECs) as a first step in building the trust needed for them to reengage with school and work. The Indianapolis area has more than 30,000 such young people. It costs us about $12,500 each to reengage with them鈥攁 smart investment, considering it costs society three times more if they continue to stay out of school or work. As an intermediary working with many stakeholders, we鈥檙e a catalyst, a translator, and a funding go between. We鈥檝e made hopeful progress since our founding in 1983. Our real success, however, will be when we鈥檙e not needed anymore, when businesses and institutions are working together as a matter of course, and routinely engaging students with real-world, hands-on, and creative assignments that help them become the lifelong learners every community needs.

See more from the Center on Reinventing Public Education and its .

Why did you originally get involved in organizing domestic workers, including nannies, in New York City?

Living in New York City, it鈥檚 impossible not to see that the city is really powered by a workforce of women, mostly women of color, who provide essential services for families and especially care that families need. There were just upwards of 200,000 mostly immigrant women of color who were working, pushing babies in strollers to the parks and picking them up from play dates and story hours. When we think about the workforce that makes everything else possible, it鈥檚 impossible in New York City not to see this incredible workforce of women of color who do that work. It鈥檚 also really stark how undervalued their work is and how largely unseen it鈥檚 been in our culture and in our economy.

And these are women who also have families of their own. Really early on when I was still in school, I was volunteering at a domestic violence shelter for Asian immigrant women. I worked the hotline at nights and a lot of the calls that would come into the hotline were about the economic stressors that survivors of violence face and the fact that many of them work in these low-wage service jobs like nannying and caregiving. While they鈥檙e incredibly dedicated to that work, they just can鈥檛 pay the bills or make ends meet on the income that they earn. And without access to a safety net, they just really didn鈥檛 have the ability to provide the care that their own families needed. It seemed like a really important place to dive in if we wanted to really create economic opportunity in our community.

You鈥檝e been working on this project for a long time now. How has the issue of rights for domestic workers and caregivers evolved over the years that you鈥檝e been working on it?

I first started organizing domestic workers in 1998. At the time, even through the early 2000s, when you would say the words 鈥渄omestic worker,鈥� legislators would ask, 鈥淲hat are you talking about? Is this about domestic violence, what is this about really?鈥� We鈥檝e literally had to bring nannies to the state legislature and to the city council to share their experiences and tell their stories. Then, there slowly became a recognition of just how large and important this work is and just how vulnerable the work is.

In the 1930s, when Congress was debating the New Deal labor laws that would become our core foundational labor law framework, Southern members of Congress would not support those laws if they included equal protections for farm workers and domestic workers, who were mostly Black at the time. That racial exclusion has really shaped how this workforce has been treated under the law and in our culture. The organizing that we鈥檝e done has really tried to bring attention to that and to address it for the 21^st century. The question of how race and gender has shaped what kind of work we value and protect in our economy 鈥� that conversation has really evolved thanks to movements for social change over the years.

Now that we have a reality where most working age adults work outside of the home and they rely upon caregivers and professional care workers to support their families, there is an increasing understanding of just how important this work is. But our policies haven鈥檛 really caught up. I would say that for the most part in our country鈥檚 history, we鈥檝e always treated caring for our families as an individual personal responsibility. If you鈥檙e a parent and you can鈥檛 afford child care, it鈥檚 because of some failure on your part, or if you鈥檙e a daughter of a parent with Alzheimer鈥檚 and you can鈥檛 afford the home care that they need, it鈥檚 because you didn鈥檛 save or you did something wrong.

What the Covid pandemic has revealed is that our lack of a caregiving infrastructure and adequate support for working families to meet their caregiving needs is actually a huge liability and a huge risk in our public health and in our economy. Now there鈥檚 starting to be more of an awareness that care is a public policy priority and need and that care infrastructure is fundamental infrastructure for our economic wellbeing in the 21^st century.

Do you think Americans have become more inclined to support better rights for domestic workers and caregivers, public responses to caregiving needs, in the pandemic?

I would say yes. There鈥檚 been a huge consciousness and awareness shift in terms of what work is essential. This pandemic has created this situation where all of these workers who are working in our service economy 鈥� who by the way are mostly women and people of color who worked in jobs that were almost invisible to us, everyone from the farmworker to the grocery worker and the delivery worker to the child care worker and the home care worker 鈥� suddenly people started to understand that this work is essential to our health and our safety and our wellbeing. I think people do understand that childcare workers, early educators and home care workers are essential.

The other piece of it is the caregiving challenges. We鈥檝e been reading these horrific numbers about women who are being forced out of the workforce because of a lack of choices around caregiving, whether it鈥檚 child care or elder care. And it鈥檚 disproportionately affected women of color in particular. There has been a real shift in consciousness, both in terms of the workforce and how essential the work is and in terms of just what working families need in the way of a caregiving infrastructure and policy support.

What has the pandemic meant for your organizing 鈥� has it impacted it or changed it? The pandemic will someday ebb and end, how do you carry that consciousness forward and what does it look like on the other side of the crisis?

We never stopped organizing, especially in the peak of the pandemic because we have so many care workers and nannies and house cleaners who worked through the pandemic providing essential services to families who needed them. They did so without access to health care, sometimes without access to proper PPE [personal protective equipment], and certainly without access to child care for their own kids who were home from school.

We鈥檝e been organizing throughout, and we鈥檝e had more engagement than ever before from caregivers and domestic workers around the country, signing up to call their members of Congress, to participate in legislative meetings and town halls and online rallies.

There is a real sense [that] now is our time. So we鈥檙e working together with unions who represent care workers, with family caregivers and family caregiver advocates, we鈥檙e working with early childhood advocates, paid leave advocates, to push together to build the care economy that we鈥檝e always needed. We think that this is a once in several generations opportunity to really reset how our economy functions to better support families. So everything is super charged at this moment in terms of our organizing.

During the pandemic and even before that, have you seen parents getting more involved? I鈥檓 often asked why there isn鈥檛 a parents鈥� movement for child care, and there鈥檚 lots of reasons for that. But are parents getting turned onto this, are they getting involved and mobilized?

Yes absolutely. The voters who turned out to vote in unprecedented numbers in 2020 and even in Georgia in the Senate runoffs are parents, many of them. The care workers themselves are parents. I think everywhere we turn people are activated because the stakes have never been more clear. Despite all the challenges with the pandemic and otherwise, I do see renewed passion about the fact that it is up to us. It鈥檚 the voters who will decide and communities in motion who can really make change happen.

We have good champions in the legislature, and I think the stars are beginning to align in that way.

Joe Biden made his caregiving platform a central part of his presidential campaign. With that and with champions in the legislature, do you think now is the time? Are you optimistic that policy will change?

I鈥檓 going to quote Stacey Abrams here and say I鈥檓 neither pessimistic nor optimistic, but I am determined. I say that because these are issues that families have been raising for decades now. We have really seen a big breakthrough moment in the public awareness around the essential nature of the care economy and we have a really good mandate on the part of voters to move real change forward. It is going to be up to us collectively to make it happen. It鈥檚 going to take a very broad, wide and deep movement of families and workers together to realize the possibility or the potential of this moment.

The Biden caregiving agenda was a significant marker for three reasons. One being that it was the first time a presidential candidate made caregiving a core part of their economic agenda. Not the women鈥檚 agenda, not the family agenda 鈥� the economic agenda.

The second piece was that it really understood that family care is about meeting the needs of families that are intergenerational units. There is a need for child care and early educators, there鈥檚 a need for paid leave so that families can take care of the people that they love and themselves at different times, and that there鈥檚 a need for long-term care, elder care, and support for people with disabilities, especially in the home and community. While those issues have been siloed in the past, people are starting to understand how they鈥檙e interconnected and interdependent and that families experience the need for these policy solutions in ways that are fundamentally connected. That was another big breakthrough.

The third big breakthrough was really recognizing the importance of the caregiving workforce. We need to be investing in our childcare providers, in our early educators. We need to be making sure that home care jobs, that all of the jobs in the care economy, are living wage jobs with benefits and a path to a union and, I would add, a path to citizenship for the immigrant caregiving workforce.

The fact that the Biden care agenda planted those three stakes in the ground is a really significant indicator of how far we鈥檝e come on these issues and what鈥檚 possible. Which I think is about building the kind of care infrastructure that really does meet families where they are at this time in our history.

For someone who is interested in organizing their neighborhood and organizing their community to advocate for more resources for children, for better working conditions for caregivers, what advice would you give? Where should people start? What are your tricks of the trade?

There are lots of great organizations to get involved with and support. is one, is organizing parents around the country around childcare issues. is another. Now is definitely the time.

Because of the timely nature with which all of these policies are being discussed in the context of federal relief, I would just say to pick up the phone and call your members of Congress and urge that supporting caregivers and caregiving is a core component of any Covid relief and recovery effort. And if you can set up a meeting with your member of Congress and gather your neighbors, friends and family to do the same, that actually could make all the difference right now.

Our traditional approaches to economic recovery have really evolved. Short-term investments in public infrastructure like roads, bridges, and tunnels and broadband 鈥� those are absolutely essential. And child care, home care, these kinds of policies and programs are also essential infrastructure at this time. In order to make sure that we build an economy that actually works better and keeps us safer and is more resilient coming out of this pandemic, we really have to see our caregiving programs in that way and our care workforce as essential infrastructure. It鈥檚 different because it鈥檚 human infrastructure. But it is just as essential and fundamental to a healthy economy. Any parent out there reading this will get that.